Dependent origination and sleeping

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Bundokji
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Dependent origination and sleeping

Post by Bundokji »

The Buddha taught:
This being, that is;
from the arising of this, that arises;
this not being, that is not;
from the cessation of this, that ceases.
How do you understand the role of sleeping in the way we perceive the world?

Thanks
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
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confusedlayman
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Re: Dependent origination and sleeping

Post by confusedlayman »

Bundokji wrote: Tue Sep 08, 2020 3:10 pm The Buddha taught:
This being, that is;
from the arising of this, that arises;
this not being, that is not;
from the cessation of this, that ceases.
How do you understand the role of sleeping in the way we perceive the world?

Thanks
NO dependent origination in deep sleep but if someone touch u and wake then DO starts..

DO needs contact and conciousness of contact,,, in dreamless deep sleep not possible in absent of powerful stimulus
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
form
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Re: Dependent origination and sleeping

Post by form »

When one is asleep, unconscious prevails. Impulses that are normally suppressed have the opportunity to express themselves. Dreams and fantasies become alive to satisfy desires, to balance the cravings. The contact are with mind objects only.

If one can go into a sleeping state while awake, that is another thing. The difference will be one is a concentrated mind while the one mentioned in my first paragraph is an unconcentrated mind. This set is one of the 8 pairs under foundation of mindfulness of mind.

This topic appears very commonly in many ancient Indian spiritual thoughts and has close link to Freudian psychology.
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Bundokji
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Re: Dependent origination and sleeping

Post by Bundokji »

confusedlayman wrote: Tue Sep 08, 2020 3:12 pm NO dependent origination in deep sleep but if someone touch u and wake then DO starts..

DO needs contact and conciousness of contact,,, in dreamless deep sleep not possible in absent of powerful stimulus
To say there is no DO origination in deep sleep is DO in action. The Buddha made a distinction:
Mendicants, I will teach you dependent origination and dependently originated phenomena.
https://suttacentral.net/sn12.20/en/sujato
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
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Bundokji
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Re: Dependent origination and sleeping

Post by Bundokji »

form wrote: Tue Sep 08, 2020 3:30 pm When one is asleep, unconscious prevails. Impulses that are normally suppressed have the opportunity to express themselves. Dreams and fantasies become alive to satisfy desires, to balance the cravings. The contact are with mind objects only.

If one can go into a sleeping state while awake, that is another thing. The difference will be one is a concentrated mind while the one mentioned in my first paragraph is an unconcentrated mind. This set is one of the 8 pairs under foundation of mindfulness of mind.

This topic appears very commonly in many ancient Indian spiritual thoughts and has close link to Freudian psychology.
Thanks for your input. I was not referring to dreaming, but to sleeping.

I did not encounter the notion of "sleeping state while awake" before. What is it that makes it a sleeping state to begin with?
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
binocular
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Re: Dependent origination and sleeping

Post by binocular »

Bundokji wrote: Tue Sep 08, 2020 3:10 pmHow do you understand the role of sleeping in the way we perceive the world?
It's similar to intoxication in that both sleep and intoxication are typically desired, experienced as pleasurable, and resorted to as escapes from the troubles of life. Both sleep and intoxication operate on the premise "There's no other way to deal with life's problems than to try to escape them". For the way a person perceives the world this implies helplessness, powerlessness.
Hic Rhodus, hic salta!
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Bundokji
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Re: Dependent origination and sleeping

Post by Bundokji »

binocular wrote: Tue Sep 08, 2020 6:00 pm
Bundokji wrote: Tue Sep 08, 2020 3:10 pmHow do you understand the role of sleeping in the way we perceive the world?
It's similar to intoxication in that both sleep and intoxication are typically desired, experienced as pleasurable, and resorted to as escapes from the troubles of life. Both sleep and intoxication operate on the premise "There's no other way to deal with life's problems than to try to escape them". For the way a person perceives the world this implies helplessness, powerlessness.
Thanks :anjali:

Obviously there is no one correct way of approaching this, but i was thinking more in the line of the relationship between sleeping and the idea of non-existence. The role it plays in objectifying our experience including our sense of time, and the ideas we hold about death, what is temporary and what is permanent. What does it mean to witness.

It is usually said that on average, humans spend about third of their life time sleeping. It is interesting how little attention is paid to it.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
form
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Re: Dependent origination and sleeping

Post by form »

Bundokji wrote: Tue Sep 08, 2020 3:38 pm
form wrote: Tue Sep 08, 2020 3:30 pm When one is asleep, unconscious prevails. Impulses that are normally suppressed have the opportunity to express themselves. Dreams and fantasies become alive to satisfy desires, to balance the cravings. The contact are with mind objects only.

If one can go into a sleeping state while awake, that is another thing. The difference will be one is a concentrated mind while the one mentioned in my first paragraph is an unconcentrated mind. This set is one of the 8 pairs under foundation of mindfulness of mind.

This topic appears very commonly in many ancient Indian spiritual thoughts and has close link to Freudian psychology.
Thanks for your input. I was not referring to dreaming, but to sleeping.

I did not encounter the notion of "sleeping state while awake" before. What is it that makes it a sleeping state to begin with?
Sorry, I don't know how to explain to you properly.
justindesilva
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Re: Dependent origination and sleeping

Post by justindesilva »

form wrote: Wed Sep 09, 2020 5:44 am
Bundokji wrote: Tue Sep 08, 2020 3:38 pm
form wrote: Tue Sep 08, 2020 3:30 pm When one is asleep, unconscious prevails. Impulses that are normally suppressed have the opportunity to express themselves. Dreams and fantasies become alive to satisfy desires, to balance the cravings. The contact are with mind objects only.

If one can go into a sleeping state while awake, that is another thing. The difference will be one is a concentrated mind while the one mentioned in my first paragraph is an unconcentrated mind. This set is one of the 8 pairs under foundation of mindfulness of mind.

This topic appears very commonly in many ancient Indian spiritual thoughts and has close link to Freudian psychology.
Thanks for your input. I was not referring to dreaming, but to sleeping.

I did not encounter the notion of "sleeping state while awake" before. What is it that makes it a sleeping state to begin with?
Sorry, I don't know how to explain to you properly.
In dependant origination the second conditioning is avidya paccaya sankara and the next is sankara paccaya vingnana.
Sankara is mainly threefold kaya sankara, vaci sankara and citta sankara while kaya sankara is connected to breathing.
While sleeping one breaths and the condition sankara is partially active. Hence Paticca samuppada while sleeping is not redundant and is active. Secondly rev.Punnaji thero explains that ayu sankara ( not often discussed) is metabolism which is also an active " sankara" during sleep. Hence when sankara is active Dependant co origination becomes active with next as nama Rupa and follows.
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Re: Dependent origination and sleeping

Post by SteRo »

Bundokji wrote: Tue Sep 08, 2020 3:10 pm How do you understand the role of sleeping in the way we perceive the world?
No difference as far as conventional dreams are concerned. There seem to be many dreams one does not remember in wake state as one does not remember past lives. So it is difficult to say whether there is sleep without dreams.
Lucid sleeping/dreaming is like cessation of ignorance in wake state.
Exhaling अ and inhaling धीः amounts to བྷྲཱུཾ་བི་ཤྭ་བི་ཤུད་དྷེ
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Bundokji
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Re: Dependent origination and sleeping

Post by Bundokji »

form wrote: Wed Sep 09, 2020 5:44 am Sorry, I don't know how to explain to you properly.
Quite the opposite! Thanks for sharing what you know :anjali:
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
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Bundokji
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Re: Dependent origination and sleeping

Post by Bundokji »

justindesilva wrote: Wed Sep 09, 2020 7:45 am In dependant origination the second conditioning is avidya paccaya sankara and the next is sankara paccaya vingnana.
Sankara is mainly threefold kaya sankara, vaci sankara and citta sankara while kaya sankara is connected to breathing.
While sleeping one breaths and the condition sankara is partially active. Hence Paticca samuppada while sleeping is not redundant and is active. Secondly rev.Punnaji thero explains that ayu sankara ( not often discussed) is metabolism which is also an active " sankara" during sleep. Hence when sankara is active Dependant co origination becomes active with next as nama Rupa and follows.
Could you please share a link of Ven. Punnaji's teachings on ayu sankara?
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
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Bundokji
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Re: Dependent origination and sleeping

Post by Bundokji »

SteRo wrote: Wed Sep 09, 2020 10:52 am No difference as far as conventional dreams are concerned. There seem to be many dreams one does not remember in wake state as one does not remember past lives. So it is difficult to say whether there is sleep without dreams.
Lucid sleeping/dreaming is like cessation of ignorance in wake state.
Sleep without dreams is usually the perception of having been absent for a length of time without recalling witnessing any other phenomena.

The issue of lucid dreaming is interesting. As form indicated in a previous post, dreams is covered excessively in both western psychology and eastern philosophy. I am more interested in sleeping and its relation to how we conceive or comprehend "absence", or linking it more directly to DO as per justindesilva's input.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
justindesilva
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Re: Dependent origination and sleeping

Post by justindesilva »

Bundokji wrote: Wed Sep 09, 2020 11:06 am
justindesilva wrote: Wed Sep 09, 2020 7:45 am In dependant origination the second conditioning is avidya paccaya sankara and the next is sankara paccaya vingnana.
Sankara is mainly threefold kaya sankara, vaci sankara and citta sankara while kaya sankara is connected to breathing.
While sleeping one breaths and the condition sankara is partially active. Hence Paticca samuppada while sleeping is not redundant and is active. Secondly rev.Punnaji thero explains that ayu sankara ( not often discussed) is metabolism which is also an active " sankara" during sleep. Hence when sankara is active Dependant co origination becomes active with next as nama Rupa and follows.
Could you please share a link of Ven. Punnaji's teachings on ayu sankara?
I clearly remember it. If you address teachings of rev. Punnaji theros teachings on sankara you may find it. However his teachings are unique and science based.
form
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Re: Dependent origination and sleeping

Post by form »

justindesilva wrote: Wed Sep 09, 2020 7:45 am
form wrote: Wed Sep 09, 2020 5:44 am
Bundokji wrote: Tue Sep 08, 2020 3:38 pm

Thanks for your input. I was not referring to dreaming, but to sleeping.

I did not encounter the notion of "sleeping state while awake" before. What is it that makes it a sleeping state to begin with?
Sorry, I don't know how to explain to you properly.
In dependant origination the second conditioning is avidya paccaya sankara and the next is sankara paccaya vingnana.
Sankara is mainly threefold kaya sankara, vaci sankara and citta sankara while kaya sankara is connected to breathing.
While sleeping one breaths and the condition sankara is partially active. Hence Paticca samuppada while sleeping is not redundant and is active. Secondly rev.Punnaji thero explains that ayu sankara ( not often discussed) is metabolism which is also an active " sankara" during sleep. Hence when sankara is active Dependant co origination becomes active with next as nama Rupa and follows.
I dunno about so many pali terms. I usually use modern psychology to understand Buddhism.
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