Dependent origination and sleeping

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
justindesilva
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Re: Dependent origination and sleeping

Post by justindesilva »

form wrote: Wed Sep 09, 2020 1:59 pm
justindesilva wrote: Wed Sep 09, 2020 7:45 am
form wrote: Wed Sep 09, 2020 5:44 am

Sorry, I don't know how to explain to you properly.
In dependant origination the second conditioning is avidya paccaya sankara and the next is sankara paccaya vingnana.
Sankara is mainly threefold kaya sankara, vaci sankara and citta sankara while kaya sankara is connected to breathing.
While sleeping one breaths and the condition sankara is partially active. Hence Paticca samuppada while sleeping is not redundant and is active. Secondly rev.Punnaji thero explains that ayu sankara ( not often discussed) is metabolism which is also an active " sankara" during sleep. Hence when sankara is active Dependant co origination becomes active with next as nama Rupa and follows.
I dunno about so many pali terms. I usually use modern psychology to understand Buddhism.
Please open in utube " mano citta vingnana" by Bhante rev. Punnaji thera. It may suit your way of understanding Buddhism just as me. I follow him and his many other sermons on utube as is explained with science. He was a western medicine practitioner before ordaining and had doctorates in psychology along with his knowledge of Tripitaka.
( Pl. try reading my two books on web www.cosmo-bodh.com
, sharing my search on Buddhism with science)
binocular
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Re: Dependent origination and sleeping

Post by binocular »

Bundokji wrote: Wed Sep 09, 2020 11:16 amThe issue of lucid dreaming is interesting. As form indicated in a previous post, dreams is covered excessively in both western psychology and eastern philosophy. I am more interested in sleeping and its relation to how we conceive or comprehend "absence", or linking it more directly to DO as per justindesilva's input.
But who is this "we"? Are you assuming that sleep is experienced the same by all people?
Hic Rhodus, hic salta!
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confusedlayman
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Re: Dependent origination and sleeping

Post by confusedlayman »

Today, wrapped in a double cloak,
my head shaven,
having wandered for alms,
I sit at the foot of a tree
and attain the state of no-thought.
All ties — human & divine — have been cut.
Having cast off all effluents,
cooled am I, unbound.
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
binocular
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Re: Dependent origination and sleeping

Post by binocular »

Bundokji wrote: Tue Sep 08, 2020 6:14 pmObviously there is no one correct way of approaching this, but i was thinking more in the line of the relationship between sleeping and the idea of non-existence. The role it plays in objectifying our experience including our sense of time, and the ideas we hold about death, what is temporary and what is permanent. What does it mean to witness.


It is usually said that on average, humans spend about third of their life time sleeping. It is interesting how little attention is paid to it.
You mean that in mainstream culture, little attention is paid to sleeping?
Taboos exist for a reason.
Hic Rhodus, hic salta!
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Bundokji
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Re: Dependent origination and sleeping

Post by Bundokji »

binocular wrote: Thu Sep 10, 2020 4:11 pm
Bundokji wrote: Wed Sep 09, 2020 11:16 amThe issue of lucid dreaming is interesting. As form indicated in a previous post, dreams is covered excessively in both western psychology and eastern philosophy. I am more interested in sleeping and its relation to how we conceive or comprehend "absence", or linking it more directly to DO as per justindesilva's input.
But who is this "we"? Are you assuming that sleep is experienced the same by all people?
"We", in this context, is our ability to communicate or think through language, which involves absence. For example, if you and i were having a coffee and you spoke about your mother, who was not sitting with us (physically absent), to what extent this ability to communicate at a certain time and space ideas descriptive of another time/space has to do with sleeping.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
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Bundokji
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Re: Dependent origination and sleeping

Post by Bundokji »

binocular wrote: Thu Sep 10, 2020 6:18 pm
Bundokji wrote: Tue Sep 08, 2020 6:14 pmObviously there is no one correct way of approaching this, but i was thinking more in the line of the relationship between sleeping and the idea of non-existence. The role it plays in objectifying our experience including our sense of time, and the ideas we hold about death, what is temporary and what is permanent. What does it mean to witness.


It is usually said that on average, humans spend about third of their life time sleeping. It is interesting how little attention is paid to it.
You mean that in mainstream culture, little attention is paid to sleeping?
Taboos exist for a reason.
In main stream culture, quantity does matter. When knowledge is not a value in itself, but linked to how we "feel", joyful experiences are sought in a way to last longer and vice versa. Also sleeping plays a role in distinguishing subjective time from objective time, objective time being measured by our watches, while subjective time is our perception/feeling of time lapsing.

The relationship between time and value is an interesting one. For example, the Buddha advised young monks not to sleep too much and to begin meditating at dawn, meditation involving presence of mind/mindfulness. The orderliness of the dhamma implies that this has also to do with the contemplation of death being encourage, which is a reminder that our time here is limited. There is another interesting similarity between our ideas of sleeping, death and absence (which is rooted in presence). In my culture, for example, sleeping is described as "the smaller death".
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
binocular
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Re: Dependent origination and sleeping

Post by binocular »

Bundokji wrote: Thu Sep 10, 2020 6:30 pm"We", in this context, is our ability to communicate or think through language, which involves absence. For example, if you and i were having a coffee and you spoke about your mother, who was not sitting with us (physically absent), to what extent this ability to communicate at a certain time and space ideas descriptive of another time/space has to do with sleeping.
A generalized "we".

My point is that there can be great individual differences in how different people experience sleep. To the point that some general, unifying "we" doesn't make sense anymore.
For example, I know that I experience sleeping quite differently than most people I know.
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Bundokji
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Re: Dependent origination and sleeping

Post by Bundokji »

binocular wrote: Thu Sep 10, 2020 6:47 pm
Bundokji wrote: Thu Sep 10, 2020 6:30 pm"We", in this context, is our ability to communicate or think through language, which involves absence. For example, if you and i were having a coffee and you spoke about your mother, who was not sitting with us (physically absent), to what extent this ability to communicate at a certain time and space ideas descriptive of another time/space has to do with sleeping.
A generalized "we".

My point is that there can be great individual differences in how different people experience sleep. To the point that some general, unifying "we" doesn't make sense anymore.
For example, I know that I experience sleeping quite differently than most people I know.
And who said that experience has to be free of generalization. The issue of generalization is often raised when it causes a distortion of meaning or leads to wrong conclusions. Unless our experience shares many similarities, there wont be differences to be accounted for to begin with. Sleeping, unlike dreaming, is inferred and not directly experienced, but seems to be a major component in constructing an experience that is both similar enough among people to have the ability to communicate absence, and different enough to make sense of the words being used (comparing and contrasting).
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
binocular
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Re: Dependent origination and sleeping

Post by binocular »

Bundokji wrote: Thu Sep 10, 2020 7:01 pmAnd who said that experience has to be free of generalization. The issue of generalization is often raised when it causes a distortion of meaning or leads to wrong conclusions. Unless our experience shares many similarities, there wont be differences to be accounted for to begin with.
And yet different people can use the same word, the same name for something, but mean something different by it. Who is distorting? Who is coming to the wrong conclusions? Who is the arbiter of reality? Who decides how things really are?
Hic Rhodus, hic salta!
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Bundokji
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Re: Dependent origination and sleeping

Post by Bundokji »

binocular wrote: Thu Sep 10, 2020 7:22 pm
Bundokji wrote: Thu Sep 10, 2020 7:01 pmAnd who said that experience has to be free of generalization. The issue of generalization is often raised when it causes a distortion of meaning or leads to wrong conclusions. Unless our experience shares many similarities, there wont be differences to be accounted for to begin with.
And yet different people can use the same word, the same name for something, but mean something different by it. Who is distorting? Who is coming to the wrong conclusions? Who is the arbiter of reality? Who decides how things really are?
I fail to see the relevance of all of this! Maybe you are objecting to an issue that never been raised?
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
binocular
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Re: Dependent origination and sleeping

Post by binocular »

Bundokji wrote: Thu Sep 10, 2020 7:27 pmI fail to see the relevance of all of this! Maybe you are objecting to an issue that never been raised?
I'm pointing out the limits of the way this topic was conceived.
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Bundokji
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Re: Dependent origination and sleeping

Post by Bundokji »

binocular wrote: Fri Sep 11, 2020 9:10 am I'm pointing out the limits of the way this topic was conceived.
Maybe my lack of understanding your point because i can't relate it the context being presented. The idea that different words can mean different things to different people remains a possibility applicable to every act of communication, but it is not often raised unless there is a reason to do so. In fact, from that perspective, raising it in this way seems to be an act of generalization.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
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