Is being a victim of rape 'kamma vipaka'

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bhante dhamma
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Is being a victim of rape 'kamma vipaka'

Post by bhante dhamma »

Salutations fellow Dhamma-farers,
What would your answer to the question 'Are rape victims people who are experiencing Karma vipaka? be' What discourses from the pāḷi canon are you aware of that this topic could potentially involve?
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DooDoot
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Re: Is being a victim of rape 'kamma vipaka'

Post by DooDoot »

AN 6.63 says kamma is intention. Did the rape victim do anything intending to be raped?

MN 9, for example, says greed (lust), hatred & delusion are the roots of unwholesome actions (kamma). Did the rape victim lust to be raped?

Dhp 137 -140 say: "He who inflicts violence on those who are unarmed, and offends those who are inoffensive, will soon come upon one of these ten states: Sharp pain, or disaster, bodily injury, serious illness, or derangement of mind, trouble from the government, or grave charges, loss of relatives, or loss of wealth, or houses destroyed by ravaging fire; upon dissolution of the body that ignorant man is born in hell." Is the rape victim classed as "unarmed" or "inoffensive"?

AN 8.84 says a rapist will be executed. If rape was the kamma-vipaka of the victim, why would the rapist be executed? If rape was the kamma-vipaka of the victim, surely the rapist would be viewed similar to King Yama in MN 130?

DN 16 and AN 7.22 say: "As long as the Vajjis don’t rape or abduct women or girls from their families and force them to live with them, they can expect growth, not decline". Why would the words "abduct", "rape" or "force" be used if rape was the victims kamma-vipaka?

In many suttas, it is said beings, having done X & Y kamma, will be heirs to that kamma. If rape was kamma-vipaka, why would the suttas prohibit evil actions if the victims of evil actions were simply experiencing their kammic inheritance? Instead of calling certain actions "evil" or "unwholesome", they would instead be called "kamma-vipaka". :?
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confusedlayman
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Re: Is being a victim of rape 'kamma vipaka'

Post by confusedlayman »

if someone enjoys getting raped when watching xx videos or imagination due to extreme lust. there is possibility one might reborn in similar scene and exp their desire but in next life they may think it as offensive eventhough in past life they craved for it...

I have seen some people with extreme lust, desires to be raped to enjoy but when really happens with different mindset they get depressed.
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DooDoot
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Re: Is being a victim of rape 'kamma vipaka'

Post by DooDoot »

confusedlayman wrote: Thu Sep 10, 2020 8:07 am if someone enjoys getting raped when watching xx videos or imagination due to extreme lust. there is possibility one might reborn in similar scene and exp their desire but in next life they may think it as offensive eventhough in past life they craved for it..
Videos have existed for around 40 years however rape has occurred for probably at least 40,000 years. :?
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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confusedlayman
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Re: Is being a victim of rape 'kamma vipaka'

Post by confusedlayman »

DooDoot wrote: Thu Sep 10, 2020 9:06 am
confusedlayman wrote: Thu Sep 10, 2020 8:07 am if someone enjoys getting raped when watching xx videos or imagination due to extreme lust. there is possibility one might reborn in similar scene and exp their desire but in next life they may think it as offensive eventhough in past life they craved for it..
Videos have existed for around 40 years however rape has occurred for probably at least 40,000 years. :?
imagination also works
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
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Bundokji
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Re: Is being a victim of rape 'kamma vipaka'

Post by Bundokji »

bhante dhamma wrote: Thu Sep 10, 2020 6:40 am Salutations fellow Dhamma-farers,
What would your answer to the question 'Are rape victims people who are experiencing Karma vipaka? be' What discourses from the pāḷi canon are you aware of that this topic could potentially involve?
I would personally dismiss the question as not the best way to understand the Buddha's teachings on karma vipaka.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
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SDC
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Re: Is being a victim of rape 'kamma vipaka'

Post by SDC »

Bundokji wrote: Thu Sep 10, 2020 10:48 am
bhante dhamma wrote: Thu Sep 10, 2020 6:40 am Salutations fellow Dhamma-farers,
What would your answer to the question 'Are rape victims people who are experiencing Karma vipaka? be' What discourses from the pāḷi canon are you aware of that this topic could potentially involve?
I would personally dismiss the question as not the best way to understand the Buddha's teachings on karma vipaka.
Exactly. This degree of specificity falls well under the umbrella of the four unthinkables/inconjecturables. That the precise workings of kamma are inaccessible (AN 4.77), helps in understanding why trying to figure out such a specific issue like this is a fruitless endeavor. There are dozens and dozens of suttas about the nature of action (kamma) that emphasize what is actually important in terms of freedom from suffering. This question, along with others like, "Why was that person born wealthy?", according to the suttas, will cause you to meet with vexation.
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Bundokji
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Re: Is being a victim of rape 'kamma vipaka'

Post by Bundokji »

SDC wrote: Thu Sep 10, 2020 11:27 am Exactly. This degree of specificity falls well under the umbrella of the four unthinkables/inconjecturables. That the precise workings of kamma are inaccessible (AN 4.77), helps in understanding why trying to figure out such a specific issue like this is a fruitless endeavor. There are dozens and dozens of suttas about the nature of action (kamma) that emphasize what is actually important in terms of freedom from suffering. This question, along with others like, "Why was that person born wealthy?", according to the suttas, will cause you to meet with vexation.
Thanks. In general, and as you stated, fruitless endeavors are not conducive to concentration, which requires distinguishing the essential from the non-essential.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
binocular
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Re: Is being a victim of rape 'kamma vipaka'

Post by binocular »

Bundokji wrote: Thu Sep 10, 2020 11:36 am
SDC wrote: Thu Sep 10, 2020 11:27 am Exactly. This degree of specificity falls well under the umbrella of the four unthinkables/inconjecturables. That the precise workings of kamma are inaccessible (AN 4.77), helps in understanding why trying to figure out such a specific issue like this is a fruitless endeavor. There are dozens and dozens of suttas about the nature of action (kamma) that emphasize what is actually important in terms of freedom from suffering. This question, along with others like, "Why was that person born wealthy?", according to the suttas, will cause you to meet with vexation.
Thanks. In general, and as you stated, fruitless endeavors are not conducive to concentration, which requires distinguishing the essential from the non-essential.
Your dismissal is premature, ungrounded.

There are suttas that go into considerable detail listing what the kammic/rebirth consequences of lying, drinking, etc. are, for example. So why not explain sexual assault? Because the whole thing was written by men, aimed at men, and so "women's issues" aren't relevant?
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SDC
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Re: Is being a victim of rape 'kamma vipaka'

Post by SDC »

binocular wrote: Thu Sep 10, 2020 3:43 pm
Bundokji wrote: Thu Sep 10, 2020 11:36 am
SDC wrote: Thu Sep 10, 2020 11:27 am Exactly. This degree of specificity falls well under the umbrella of the four unthinkables/inconjecturables. That the precise workings of kamma are inaccessible (AN 4.77), helps in understanding why trying to figure out such a specific issue like this is a fruitless endeavor. There are dozens and dozens of suttas about the nature of action (kamma) that emphasize what is actually important in terms of freedom from suffering. This question, along with others like, "Why was that person born wealthy?", according to the suttas, will cause you to meet with vexation.
Thanks. In general, and as you stated, fruitless endeavors are not conducive to concentration, which requires distinguishing the essential from the non-essential.
Your dismissal is premature, ungrounded.

There are suttas that go into considerable detail listing what the kammic/rebirth consequences of lying, drinking, etc. are, for example. So why not explain sexual assault? Because the whole thing was written by men, aimed at men, and so "women's issues" aren't relevant?
My post did explicitly say, "There are dozens and dozens of suttas about the nature of action (kamma) that emphasize what is actually important in terms of freedom from suffering?" Why would you assume that I wasn't referring to those consequences having to do with sexual assault and that Bundokji agrees? I never said to ignore the consequences of action, but that trying to identify the reason for an act against oneself or another leads to vexation, which is the topic of this thread.
santa100
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Re: Is being a victim of rape 'kamma vipaka'

Post by santa100 »

bhante dhamma wrote:Salutations fellow Dhamma-farers,
What would your answer to the question 'Are rape victims people who are experiencing Karma vipaka? be' What discourses from the pāḷi canon are you aware of that this topic could potentially involve?
Here's the PC version of the same question, which folks would be more willing to answer honestly without fear of PC-breach: "If one rapes others, will he be subjected to terrible kamma-vipaka, up to and including being raped in return in subsequent lives?"
dharmacorps
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Re: Is being a victim of rape 'kamma vipaka'

Post by dharmacorps »

To my knowledge, there is nothing in the canon related to this question specifically (rape victims). There is much discussion of the kammic repercussions of perpetrators though. Maybe we should take the hint from that fact and stay away from this obvious powder keg of an issue.
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Mr Man
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Re: Is being a victim of rape 'kamma vipaka'

Post by Mr Man »

bhante dhamma wrote: Thu Sep 10, 2020 6:40 am Salutations fellow Dhamma-farers,
What would your answer to the question 'Are rape victims people who are experiencing Karma vipaka? be' What discourses from the pāḷi canon are you aware of that this topic could potentially involve?
There is this -
Some feelings, Sīvaka, arise here originating from phlegm disorders … originating from wind disorders … originating from an imbalance of the three … produced by change of climate … produced by careless behaviour … caused by assault … produced as the result of kamma: that some feelings arise here produced as the result of kamma one can know for oneself, and that is considered to be true in the world. Now when those ascetics and brahmins hold such a doctrine and view as this, ‘Whatever a person experiences, whether it be pleasant or painful or neither-painful-nor-pleasant, all that is caused by what was done in the past,’ they overshoot what one knows by oneself and they overshoot what is considered to be true in the world. Therefore I say that this is wrong on the part of those ascetics and brahmins.”

When this was said, the wanderer Moḷiyasīvaka said to the Blessed One: “Magnificent, Master Gotama! Magnificent, Master Gotama!… From today let Master Gotama remember me as a lay follower who has gone for refuge for life.”

Bile, phlegm, and also wind,
Imbalance and climate too,
Carelessness and assault,
With kamma result as the eighth.
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Last edited by Mr Man on Thu Sep 10, 2020 7:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
binocular
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Re: Is being a victim of rape 'kamma vipaka'

Post by binocular »

SDC wrote: Thu Sep 10, 2020 4:09 pmMy post did explicitly say, "There are dozens and dozens of suttas about the nature of action (kamma) that emphasize what is actually important in terms of freedom from suffering?" Why would you assume that I wasn't referring to those consequences having to do with sexual assault and that Bundokji agrees? I never said to ignore the consequences of action, but that trying to identify the reason for an act against oneself or another leads to vexation, which is the topic of this thread.
See the OP again, as far as the topic of the thread is concerned.

I'm saying it's conspicuous that the suttas talk about the consequences of some actions (such as what are the consequences of lying or using intoxicants), but not about others. How come?
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