Is being a victim of rape 'kamma vipaka'

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binocular
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Re: Is being a victim of rape 'kamma vipaka'

Post by binocular »

dharmacorps wrote: Thu Sep 10, 2020 7:00 pmTo my knowledge, there is nothing in the canon related to this question specifically (rape victims). There is much discussion of the kammic repercussions of perpetrators though.

Maybe we should take the hint from that fact and stay away from this obvious powder keg of an issue.
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Re: Is being a victim of rape 'kamma vipaka'

Post by binocular »

santa100 wrote: Thu Sep 10, 2020 5:40 pm
bhante dhamma wrote:Salutations fellow Dhamma-farers,
What would your answer to the question 'Are rape victims people who are experiencing Karma vipaka? be' What discourses from the pāḷi canon are you aware of that this topic could potentially involve?
Here's the PC version of the same question, which folks would be more willing to answer honestly without fear of PC-breach: "If one rapes others, will he be subjected to terrible kamma-vipaka, up to and including being raped in return in subsequent lives?"
If this would be the line of reasoning that the people back then operated on, then why were there such harsh punishments for rape victims (usually, death)?

They didn't punish the victims of robbery or assault. But why then did they punish rape victims? Maybe because they didn't see them as victims at all?
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SDC
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Re: Is being a victim of rape 'kamma vipaka'

Post by SDC »

binocular wrote: Thu Sep 10, 2020 7:05 pm
SDC wrote: Thu Sep 10, 2020 4:09 pmMy post did explicitly say, "There are dozens and dozens of suttas about the nature of action (kamma) that emphasize what is actually important in terms of freedom from suffering?" Why would you assume that I wasn't referring to those consequences having to do with sexual assault and that Bundokji agrees? I never said to ignore the consequences of action, but that trying to identify the reason for an act against oneself or another leads to vexation, which is the topic of this thread.
See the OP again, as far as the topic of the thread is concerned.

I'm saying it's conspicuous that the suttas talk about the consequences of some actions (such as what are the consequences of lying or using intoxicants), but not about others. How come?
There are many that describe how a life lived in breach of the five precepts, which includes sexual misconduct, will lead to hell. It's very often all five together.
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Re: Is being a victim of rape 'kamma vipaka'

Post by santa100 »

binocular wrote:If this would be the line of reasoning that the people back then operated on, then why were there such harsh punishments for rape victims (usually, death)?

They didn't punish the victims of robbery or assault. But why then did they punish rape victims? Maybe because they didn't see them as victims at all?
Please be more explicit on pointing out who "They" are, maybe with sources/references?
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Re: Is being a victim of rape 'kamma vipaka'

Post by DooDoot »

confusedlayman wrote: Thu Sep 10, 2020 9:25 am imagination also works
Since I don't cry about my bicycle being stolen by a mean boy, I imagine i am much older than you. Being older than you, I do not view sexuality thu the lense of pornography since pornography has never been part of my lifestyle. Pornography is not real. It is a form of beguiling/deceptive show business or entertainment that harms many people. I think a Buddhist should remove the lense or ditthi (view) of pornography from their thinking rather than attributing rape to: "enjoys getting raped when watching xx videos". What I am saying is your personal ditthi or view has never occurred to my mind, ever.
Last edited by DooDoot on Thu Sep 10, 2020 8:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Is being a victim of rape 'kamma vipaka'

Post by DooDoot »

binocular wrote: Thu Sep 10, 2020 3:43 pm There are suttas that go into considerable detail listing what the kammic/rebirth consequences of lying, drinking, etc. are, for example. So why not explain sexual assault? Because the whole thing was written by men, aimed at men, and so "women's issues" aren't relevant?
I already posted suttas that say a rapist will be executed; that a society that rapes girls/women will decline; that whoever inflicts violence to the unarmed & inoffensive will be reborn in hell. Since the suttas refer to "protected" girls/women, obviously Buddhism does not excuse or ignore rape & other forms of sexual misconduct detrimental to women.
santa100 wrote: Thu Sep 10, 2020 5:40 pm Here's the PC version of the same question, which folks would be more willing to answer honestly without fear of PC-breach: "If one rapes others, will he be subjected to terrible kamma-vipaka, up to and including being raped in return in subsequent lives?"
Sounds like a very cruel & dangerous superstition. I recall there is one nonsense sutta in the Therigata on this topic.
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Re: Is being a victim of rape 'kamma vipaka'

Post by santa100 »

DooDoot wrote: Thu Sep 10, 2020 8:25 pm
santa100 wrote: Thu Sep 10, 2020 5:40 pm Here's the PC version of the same question, which folks would be more willing to answer honestly without fear of PC-breach: "If one rapes others, will he be subjected to terrible kamma-vipaka, up to and including being raped in return in subsequent lives?"
Sounds like a very cruel & dangerous superstition. I recall there is one nonsense sutta in the Therigata on this topic.
So, just to be clear, DooDoot's answer to the above question is: "No, there's absolutely no terrible kamma-vipaka if one rapes others", correct?
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Re: Is being a victim of rape 'kamma vipaka'

Post by DooDoot »

santa100 wrote: Thu Sep 10, 2020 8:38 pm So, just to be clear, DooDoot's answer to the above question is: "No, there's absolutely no terrible kamma-vipaka if one rapes others", correct?
False.

You appear lost in a contradiction, where you appear to be saying:

1. Rape is a terrible crime with terrible consequences

2. Rape victims are former rapists in past lives reaping what they sowed in past lives.

You appear to be transforming something "terrible" into something "deserved".

The Buddha taught evil actions comes from evil defilements such as greed, hatred & delusion. The decision to rape is the decision of the rapists. Even a woman or man engaged in negligence such as being intoxicated, wandering the streets at unseemly hours or dressing provocatively does not make the decision to be raped. The decision to rape falls 100% upon the rapist.

That you were a rapist in a past life does not place the onus upon me to rape you in this present life.
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Re: Is being a victim of rape 'kamma vipaka'

Post by santa100 »

DooDoot wrote: Thu Sep 10, 2020 8:45 pm
santa100 wrote: Thu Sep 10, 2020 8:38 pm So, just to be clear, DooDoot's answer to the above question is: "No, there's absolutely no terrible kamma-vipaka if one rapes others", correct?
False.

You appear lost in a contradiction, where you appear to be saying:

1. Rape is a terrible crime with terrible consequences

2. Rape victims are former rapists in past lives reaping what they sowed in past lives.

You appear to be transforming something "terrible" into something "deserved".

The Buddha taught evil actions comes from evil defilements such as greed, hatred & delusion. The decision to rape is the decision of the rapists. Even a woman or man engaged in negligence such as being intoxicated, wandering the streets at unseemly hours or dressing provocatively does not make the decision to be raped. The decision to rape falls 100% upon the rapist.

That you were a rapist in a past life does not place the onus upon me to rape you in this present life.
You've just typed 134 useless words without answering my question, which simply requires a Yes or a No. Here, I'll make it simple for you. I'll repeat my question, and simply need 1 single keystroke from you to put into the provided boxes below:
Question wrote:If one rapes others, will he be subjected to terrible kamma-vipaka, up to and including being raped in return in subsequent lives?"
DooDoot's answer: Yes [ ] No [ ]
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Re: Is being a victim of rape 'kamma vipaka'

Post by Bundokji »

Certain understandings of Kamma Vipaka seem to be closer to Hammurabi's Code and judo-christian mindset than the Buddha's teachings. It can be quite appealing to those with a strong sense of justice.
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Re: Is being a victim of rape 'kamma vipaka'

Post by DooDoot »

santa100 wrote: Thu Sep 10, 2020 8:53 pm If one rapes others, will he be subjected to terrible kamma-vipaka, up to and including being raped in return in subsequent lives?"

DooDoot's answer: Yes [ ] No [ ]
Nonsense question.
Bundokji wrote: Thu Sep 10, 2020 9:00 pm Certain understandings of Kamma Vipaka seem to be closer to Hammurabi's Code and judo-christian mindset than the Buddha's teachings. It can be quite appealing to those with a strong sense of justice.
Yes. Eye for an eye. Tooth for a tooth. :roll:
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Re: Is being a victim of rape 'kamma vipaka'

Post by santa100 »

DooDoot wrote: Thu Sep 10, 2020 9:03 pm
santa100 wrote: Thu Sep 10, 2020 8:53 pm If one rapes others, will he be subjected to terrible kamma-vipaka, up to and including being raped in return in subsequent lives?"

DooDoot's answer: Yes [ ] No [ ]
Nonsense question.
Not even a keystroke?
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Re: Is being a victim of rape 'kamma vipaka'

Post by DooDoot »

bhante dhamma wrote: Thu Sep 10, 2020 6:40 am What would your answer to the question 'Are rape victims people who are experiencing Karma vipaka? be' What discourses from the pāḷi canon are you aware of that this topic could potentially involve?
Thig 15.1 may support the cruel accusatory unsubstantiated view however Thig 15.1 has features of a late thus fake sutta (such as referring to "jātiyo" as literal personal past lives). Only a mere handful of suttas (eg. AN 3.15; MN 81) with the late language of the late Buddhavaṃsa & Apadāna refer to literal personal past lives.
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Re: Is being a victim of rape 'kamma vipaka'

Post by The2nd »

bhante dhamma wrote: Thu Sep 10, 2020 6:40 am Salutations fellow Dhamma-farers,
What would your answer to the question 'Are rape victims people who are experiencing Karma vipaka? be' What discourses from the pāḷi canon are you aware of that this topic could potentially involve?
Being born as a human is the result of certain actions, which results in being subject to the misfortunes of the human realm.

There are many particular factors to consider to be able to pin point exactly why rape etc occurs, but in general its because one is in a human realm.
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Re: Is being a victim of rape 'kamma vipaka'

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,

One person's kamma is not another's vipaka.

Metta,
Paul. :)
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