Is being a victim of rape 'kamma vipaka'

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DooDoot
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Re: Is being a victim of rape 'kamma vipaka'

Post by DooDoot »

binocular wrote: Fri Sep 11, 2020 11:04 am practically and ideologically
Possibly you can say more by joining in today's zoom. I won't be there but I am sure your contribution would be welcome. Good night from here. I had a very late night last night doing research. Bed time. :zzz:
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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binocular
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Re: Is being a victim of rape 'kamma vipaka'

Post by binocular »

DooDoot wrote: Fri Sep 11, 2020 9:59 amSince Buddhism teaches universal loving-kindness & empathy, obviously rape is a crime against all of the above. Obviously a girl does not want to be raped nor does her father want his daughter to be raped. It appears you are offering the type of argument devised by Ruth Bader Ginsburg for Coker v. Georgia, which is said to have lead to greater leniency towards rape as a crime.
Have you even read what is written in that link?
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Bundokji
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Re: Is being a victim of rape 'kamma vipaka'

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Upajjhatthana Sutta:
"A disciple of the noble ones considers this: 'I am not the only one who is owner of my actions, heir to my actions, born of my actions, related through my actions, and have my actions as my arbitrator; who — whatever I do, for good or for evil, to that will I fall heir. To the extent that there are beings — past and future, passing away and re-arising — all beings are the owner of their actions, heir to their actions, born of their actions, related through their actions, and have their actions as their arbitrator. Whatever they do, for good or for evil, to that will they fall heir.' When he/she often reflects on this, the [factors of the] path take birth. He/she sticks with that path, develops it, cultivates it. As he/she sticks with that path, develops it and cultivates it, the fetters are abandoned, the obsessions destroyed."
The Buddha advised individuals to think in terms of kamma, not vipaka. It is conducive to taking responsibility without turning one into a victim nor overlooking or justifying the evil done by the other. It is somehow similar to the western notion: "freedom is what you do with whats been done to you"
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
binocular
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Re: Is being a victim of rape 'kamma vipaka'

Post by binocular »

Bundokji wrote: Fri Sep 11, 2020 11:34 amThe Buddha advised individuals to think in terms of kamma, not vipaka.
What does it matter if you think of kamma, while the other person doesn't do so?
You're thereby making yourself a sitting duck.
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Bundokji
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Re: Is being a victim of rape 'kamma vipaka'

Post by Bundokji »

binocular wrote: Fri Sep 11, 2020 11:48 am
Bundokji wrote: Fri Sep 11, 2020 11:34 amThe Buddha advised individuals to think in terms of kamma, not vipaka.
What does it matter if you think of kamma, while the other person doesn't do so?
You're thereby making yourself a sitting duck.
The training in morality is a foundation for the training in concentration. In the conditioned realm of existence, taking responsibility implies knowingly assuming a choice, not as a blind belief. The fact that you can think of it in terms of vipaka is what makes taking ownership of actions a wholesome choice.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
binocular
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Re: Is being a victim of rape 'kamma vipaka'

Post by binocular »

Bundokji wrote: Fri Sep 11, 2020 11:55 amThe training in morality is a foundation for the training in concentration. In the conditioned realm of existence, taking responsibility implies knowingly assuming a choice, not as a blind belief. The fact that you can think of it in terms of vipaka is what makes taking ownership of actions a wholesome choice.
You can be a wholesome sitting duck, but it doesn't stop you from being a sitting duck.
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Bundokji
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Re: Is being a victim of rape 'kamma vipaka'

Post by Bundokji »

binocular wrote: Fri Sep 11, 2020 11:57 am
Bundokji wrote: Fri Sep 11, 2020 11:55 amThe training in morality is a foundation for the training in concentration. In the conditioned realm of existence, taking responsibility implies knowingly assuming a choice, not as a blind belief. The fact that you can think of it in terms of vipaka is what makes taking ownership of actions a wholesome choice.
You can be a wholesome sitting duck, but it doesn't stop you from being a sitting duck.
Still your choice, your vipaka.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
The2nd
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Re: Is being a victim of rape 'kamma vipaka'

Post by The2nd »

retrofuturist wrote: Fri Sep 11, 2020 3:22 am Greetings,
The2nd wrote: Fri Sep 11, 2020 1:40 am A person is responsible for being subject to another's actions, but not responsible for another's choices.

Being subject to rape is ones vipaka, but one is not responsible for the rapist's choice to rape you.
Do you have anything from the suttas to substantiate this convolution?

Image

Metta,
Paul. :)
A person is responsible for being 'subject' to the world( famine,wars,other's actions,etc).

Rape etc is only a problem for a person because they are 'subject' to suffering, which is their own fault. The rape in 'particular' might not be their fault(it rarely is), but the suffering that the victim suffers is completely their own self-induced problem, which they can only overcome completely by following the Dhamma.

If a person, hears that there is the potential for rape in this world etc and then comes across the Buddhas Teaching which informs them, that if it is practiced correctly ,that suffering will no longer be possible; and then on account of knowing these two things, chooses to not follow the Dhamma, if they get raped and inevitably suffer, it will be because they are choosing a path which maintains their state of "being subject to suffering".

We can either practice the Dhamma or not, and if we do not, then whatever misfortune arises, whatever sufffering occurs, in general, it will be the result of ones choices(to not practice Dhamma etc). Ofcourse, on a more particular level, I am not responsible for the rapists decisions but only responsible for my suffering which is my own doing.
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Re: Is being a victim of rape 'kamma vipaka'

Post by justindesilva »

Bundokji wrote: Fri Sep 11, 2020 11:00 am
justindesilva wrote: Fri Sep 11, 2020 10:51 am The story about rape of uppalawanna indicates that rapists undergo kamma vipaka.
ًًWhat if the boyfriend let her go after ordination, would that also be kamma vipaka? and if so, then what is the point of calling it kamma vipaka?
The lust (raga) of the boy is an unwholesome citta or cetasika.
It is his cetana to act with lust ( and moha) which created the kamma which resulted a vipaka ( result). Negativebkamma vipaka acts with minds filled with klesha. If one cleans the mind by Niklesha thoughts then the past kamma vipaka can be minimized or may even be eradicated ( as ahosi kamma).
What I wish to highlight is that kamma is totally linked with the state of mind.
If the boyfriend let her go after ordination then the mind of the boy friend is free of any unwholesome thoughts or cetana. Kamma is cetana.
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Re: Is being a victim of rape 'kamma vipaka'

Post by Bundokji »

justindesilva wrote: Fri Sep 11, 2020 2:09 pm The lust (raga) of the boy is an unwholesome citta or cetasika.
It is his cetana to act with lust ( and moha) which created the kamma which resulted a vipaka ( result). Negativebkamma vipaka acts with minds filled with klesha. If one cleans the mind by Niklesha thoughts then the past kamma vipaka can be minimized or may even be eradicated ( as ahosi kamma).
What I wish to highlight is that kamma is totally linked with the state of mind.
If the boyfriend let her go after ordination then the mind of the boy friend is free of any unwholesome thoughts or cetana. Kamma is cetana.
I don't necessarily disagree. Changing the state of mind also includes adopting a purposive mindset rather than an ontological one. Emphasizing the act of raping as kamma vipaka does little to change the more common mindset. That change can be when a habitual mindset fixated with linking actions through cause and effect being gradually replaced with a habitual mind that reflects before acting. By doing so, an unwholesome thought remains at the level of thought and less likely to be manifested as verbal or bodily action. The gradual process also include replacing unwholesome thoughts with wholesome thoughts.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
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Re: Is being a victim of rape 'kamma vipaka'

Post by DooDoot »

rightviewftw wrote: Fri Sep 11, 2020 5:56 pm I second that, afaik there is no way for us to work out the exact causes of the circumstances.
I read about a 'Buddhist' man who was raped. What kamma did he do to reap that?
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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binocular
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Re: Is being a victim of rape 'kamma vipaka'

Post by binocular »

Bundokji wrote: Fri Sep 11, 2020 12:01 pmStill your choice, your vipaka.
Or just an aimless, baseless fear.
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Re: Is being a victim of rape 'kamma vipaka'

Post by binocular »

DooDoot wrote: Fri Sep 11, 2020 9:11 pmI read about a 'Buddhist' man who was raped. What kamma did he do to reap that?
Maybe he raped someone. Maybe he did something else to dishonor another person, and now the other person, out of revenge, did something to him that was equally dishonoring, given the circumstances. Maybe he didn't do anything to the other person and the other person was the first to act.

Maybe this, maybe that, this is how kamma works in mysterious ways.
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Re: Is being a victim of rape 'kamma vipaka'

Post by Mr Man »

robertk wrote: Fri Sep 11, 2020 4:51 am
Mr Man wrote: Thu Sep 10, 2020 7:02 pm
bhante dhamma wrote: Thu Sep 10, 2020 6:40 am Salutations fellow Dhamma-farers,
What would your answer to the question 'Are rape victims people who are experiencing Karma vipaka? be' What discourses from the pāḷi canon are you aware of that this topic could potentially involve?
There is this -
Some feelings, Sīvaka, arise here originating from phlegm disorders … originating from wind disorders … originating from an imbalance of the three … produced by change of climate … produced by careless behaviour … caused by assault … produced as the result of kamma: that some feelings arise here produced as the result of kamma one can know for oneself, and that is considered to be true in the world. Now when those ascetics and brahmins hold such a doctrine and view as this, ‘Whatever a person experiences, whether it be pleasant or painful or neither-painful-nor-pleasant, all that is caused by what was done in the past,’ they overshoot what one knows by oneself and they overshoot what is considered to be true in the world. Therefore I say that this is wrong on the part of those ascetics and brahmins.”

When this was said, the wanderer Moḷiyasīvaka said to the Blessed One: “Magnificent, Master Gotama! Magnificent, Master Gotama!… From today let Master Gotama remember me as a lay follower who has gone for refuge for life.”

Bile, phlegm, and also wind,
Imbalance and climate too,
Carelessness and assault,
With kamma result as the eighth.
https://suttacentral.net/sn36.21/en/bodhi
https://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f ... ty#p478864 this thread explains

Samyutta Nikaya XXXVI.21
Moliyasivaka Sutta
To Sivaka

Once the Blessed One dwelled at Rajagaha in the Bamboo-Grove Monastery, at the Squirrel's Feeding Place. There a wandering ascetic, Moliya Sivaka by name, called on the Blessed One, and after an exchange of courteous and friendly words, sat down at one side. Thus seated, he said: "There are, revered Gotama, some ascetics and brahmans who have this doctrine and view: 'Whatever a person experiences, be it pleasure, pain or neither-pain-nor-pleasure, all that is caused by previous action.' Now, what does the revered Gotama say about this
?"


The view that Moliyasivaka presented to the Buddha is called pubbakatahetuvada or pubbebbetaka -hetu-ditthi, the view that all feelings in the present life is due to deeds done in former existences. It is an extreme view that is ignorant of the many other conditions operating from the past and present. Another two commonly held views are issaranimmana-hetu-ditthi, the view that a creator God is responsible for the experiences in this life; ahetu-apaccaya-ditthi, the view that there is no such thing as kamma and that all feelings arise by chance. This last view is fairly common in our age with many people imagining that it is by chance that they are born as man or woman or dog or horse, and that their experiences in life happen largely by chance and present effort only. Some people hold to views which are a mix of two or even all three. In this sutta the Buddha was concerned to refute the first extreme view only.


The Blessed one replied to Sivaka:
"Produced by (disorders of the) bile, there arise, Sivaka, certain kinds of feelings. That this happens, can be known by oneself; also in the world it is accepted as true. Produced by (disorders of the) phlegm... of wind... of (the three) combined... by change of climate... by adverse behavior... by injuries... by the results of Kamma -- (through all that), Sivaka, there arise certain kinds of feelings. That this happens can be known by oneself; also in the world it is accepted as true. "Now when these ascetics and brahmans have such a doctrine and view that 'whatever a person experiences, be it pleasure, pain or neither-pain-nor-pleasure, all that is caused by previous action,' then they go beyond what they know by themselves and what is accepted as true by the world. Therefore, I say that this is wrong on the part of these ascetics and brahmans
."

Yet according to the Abhidhamma people it is said that all vipaka (resultant cittas) are caused by kamma.
Example in 'Abhidhamma in daily life' ( nina van Gorkom)that "when we hear unpleasant words, the moment of experiencing the sound (hearing-consciousness) is akusala vipaka, the result of an unwholesome deed we perform ourselves."

One might say hey, the Buddha explicitly denied that, characterizing it as wrong view, a view of kammic determinism, as per the sutta above.

However, this is perhaps a hasty conclusion: In the Abhidhamma - as has been explained in Abhidhamma in Daily Life- there are 4 types of cittas classified as jati. Vipaka(result), kiriya , akusala and kusala. In a process of cittas that experiences an object such as sound only one moment is vipaka, result. The rest are of the other jatis(not the result of kamma). The vipaka is like a flash and then many, many more moments that are not vipaka.

Now that very insignificant vipaka citta is certainly conditioned by kamma, that is by kamma done at an earlier time in the same life or in previous lives. However, even that vipaka is not conditioned solely by kamma.

The Sammohavinodani, chapter on Paticcasamuppada (PTS)p181 notes that there is no single fruit from a single cause:
"for here there is no single nor multiple fruit of any kind from a single cause, nor is there a single fruit from multiple causes, but only multiple fruit from multiple causes. BUT with one representative fruit and cause given thus 'avijja paccaya vinnana' etc. For the blessed one uses one representative cause and fruit when it is suitable for elegance in teaching and to suit the inclinations of those being taught. And he does so in some instances because it is a basic factor and in some instances because it is obvious and in some instances because of being not shared"...."he mentioned a single cause in the passage 'diseases due to phlegm'[in the Sivaka sutta above] because of obviousness,for here it is phlegm that is obvious, not kamma and so on[/i]
."
Robert, rape is an "event" that covers a period of time and no doubt during that period there would be the arising of multiple feelings/thoughts/cittas all conditioned by multiple previous events + external factors (Sivika Sutta)

I don't believe that the idea that an "event" is necessarily conditioned by a previous "event" is supported by Sutta or Abhidhamma although there may be mythical stories that show this as happening.
binocular
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Re: Is being a victim of rape 'kamma vipaka'

Post by binocular »

The2nd wrote: Fri Sep 11, 2020 1:52 pmA person is responsible for being 'subject' to the world( famine,wars,other's actions,etc).

Rape etc is only a problem for a person because they are 'subject' to suffering, which is their own fault. The rape in 'particular' might not be their fault(it rarely is), but the suffering that the victim suffers is completely their own self-induced problem, which they can only overcome completely by following the Dhamma.

If a person, hears that there is the potential for rape in this world etc and then comes across the Buddhas Teaching which informs them, that if it is practiced correctly ,that suffering will no longer be possible; and then on account of knowing these two things, chooses to not follow the Dhamma, if they get raped and inevitably suffer, it will be because they are choosing a path which maintains their state of "being subject to suffering".

We can either practice the Dhamma or not, and if we do not, then whatever misfortune arises, whatever sufffering occurs, in general, it will be the result of ones choices(to not practice Dhamma etc). Ofcourse, on a more particular level, I am not responsible for the rapists decisions but only responsible for my suffering which is my own doing.
But how exactly does this differ from being sitting ducks?
How exactly does this differ from quietism?
How exactly does this differ from telling people to be passive recipients/targets of other people's violence?
Hic Rhodus, hic salta!
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