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Re: Is being a victim of rape 'kamma vipaka'

Posted: Sun Sep 13, 2020 12:44 pm
by robertk
Mr. Man: Robert, rape is an "event" that covers a period of time and no doubt during that period there would be the arising of multiple feelings/thoughts/cittas all conditioned by multiple previous events + external factors (Sivika Sutta)

I don't believe that the idea that an "event" is necessarily conditioned by a previous "event" is supported by Sutta or Abhidhamma although there may be mythical stories that show this as happening.
yes so this shows how useful Abhidhamma is.
I had an appendix op. a couple of years back. If we think of the whole episode then it seems like a bad time. But of course, yes there were moments of pain - but, this being the human realm, far more with neutral and pleasant feeling. Moment of kindness from the nurses (I was amazed how hard they work). Pleasant feeling at time lying on the soft hospital bed .. neutral through the eyesense.
And then the javana processes - some with aversion to pain, some with ignorance of something. Occasioanlly reflection on the nature of 'life' , with understanding.
And even for the rape victim - if broken down into moments it can't be all only akusala vipaka ..

Re: Is being a victim of rape 'kamma vipaka'

Posted: Sun Sep 13, 2020 1:02 pm
by binocular
robertk wrote: Sun Sep 13, 2020 12:44 pmAnd even for the rape victim - if broken down into moments it can't be all only akusala vipaka ..
But then there's the legal system and the legal treatment of rape.

At trial, the rapist's attorney can ask the rape victim whether she enjoyed it. They really do ask such things!
The legal system is downright forcing people into having a simplistic, black-and-white understanding of rape.


And then of course the social backlash for victims of rape. If the victim recovers, many people will say that the rape never occured, that the victim lied and an innocent person was imprisoned. If the victim doesn't recover, they become a burden to society. The victim loses either way.

Re: Is being a victim of rape 'kamma vipaka'

Posted: Sun Sep 13, 2020 1:13 pm
by Dan74
binocular wrote: Sun Sep 13, 2020 1:02 pm
robertk wrote: Sun Sep 13, 2020 12:44 pmAnd even for the rape victim - if broken down into moments it can't be all only akusala vipaka ..
But then there's the legal system and the legal treatment of rape.

At trial, the rapist's attorney can ask the rape victim whether she enjoyed it. They really do ask such things!
The legal system is downright forcing people into having a simplistic, black-and-white understanding of rape.


And then of course the social backlash for victims of rape. If the victim recovers, many people will say that the rape never occured, that the victim lied and an innocent person was imprisoned. If the victim doesn't recover, they become a burden to society. The victim loses either way.
Raising awareness of these and many other injustices is how we grow as a society, I think.

Re: Is being a victim of rape 'kamma vipaka'

Posted: Sun Sep 13, 2020 3:06 pm
by The2nd
binocular wrote: Sun Sep 13, 2020 11:56 am
The2nd wrote: Fri Sep 11, 2020 1:52 pmA person is responsible for being 'subject' to the world( famine,wars,other's actions,etc).

Rape etc is only a problem for a person because they are 'subject' to suffering, which is their own fault. The rape in 'particular' might not be their fault(it rarely is), but the suffering that the victim suffers is completely their own self-induced problem, which they can only overcome completely by following the Dhamma.

If a person, hears that there is the potential for rape in this world etc and then comes across the Buddhas Teaching which informs them, that if it is practiced correctly ,that suffering will no longer be possible; and then on account of knowing these two things, chooses to not follow the Dhamma, if they get raped and inevitably suffer, it will be because they are choosing a path which maintains their state of "being subject to suffering".

We can either practice the Dhamma or not, and if we do not, then whatever misfortune arises, whatever sufffering occurs, in general, it will be the result of ones choices(to not practice Dhamma etc). Ofcourse, on a more particular level, I am not responsible for the rapists decisions but only responsible for my suffering which is my own doing.
But how exactly does this differ from being sitting ducks?
How exactly does this differ from quietism?
How exactly does this differ from telling people to be passive recipients/targets of other people's violence?
If a person realises that they are responsible for their own suffering ,they wont be sitting around in passivity.

Re: Is being a victim of rape 'kamma vipaka'

Posted: Sun Sep 13, 2020 4:06 pm
by binocular
The2nd wrote: Sun Sep 13, 2020 3:06 pmIf a person realises that they are responsible for their own suffering ,they wont be sitting around in passivity.
Is this your justification for a preemptive strike / just war?

Re: Is being a victim of rape 'kamma vipaka'

Posted: Sun Sep 13, 2020 11:54 pm
by The2nd
binocular wrote: Sun Sep 13, 2020 4:06 pm
The2nd wrote: Sun Sep 13, 2020 3:06 pmIf a person realises that they are responsible for their own suffering ,they wont be sitting around in passivity.
Is this your justification for a preemptive strike / just war?
A war against ones own disease of dukkha.

A person who realises that they are subject to dukkha, or realises the danger that they are in, does not sit around passively but instead has a sense of urgency and vigorously attempts an escape, and the only escape that works is that of the Buddha's.

Re: Is being a victim of rape 'kamma vipaka'

Posted: Mon Sep 14, 2020 9:04 pm
by Pulsar
bhante dhamma asked
What would your answer to the question 'Are rape victims people who are experiencing Karma vipaka? be' What discourses from the pāḷi canon are you aware of that this topic could potentially involve?

In the context of SN 36. 21. Condensed excerpt:
When an ascetic says "Whatever a person experiences  "all that is caused by what was done in the past', they overshoot what one knows by oneself, and they overshoot what is considered to be true in the world.
hence the answer to the first question is
"one must not ask stuff for which a definite answer cannot be known, regarding such a serious crime"
In another sutta buddha warns us not to speculate on things like Kamma, Jhana (samadhi) etc. I do not recall the sutta number.
As for anything related to raping being said by the Buddha, to me it seems Buddha covers all bases when he speaks of the suttas on Hiri Otappa.
AN 2.7  and AN 2.9 Excerpts 
AN 2.7
Two bright qualities protect the world, Moral shame and Moral dread.
AN 2.9
If these (Hiri Otappa)were not to be in relation to wives of others, or aunts, nieces or whoever, the world would become promiscuous like goats and sheep, chickens and pigs, dogs and jackals.
According to Buddha the one without moral dread and shame (the rapist)can be compared to
  • a pig or jackal.
So it is unfair to say the Buddha's teaching does not cover the issue. 
As for the way OP asks the question on rape i can ask a rhetorical question from bhante dhamma.
'Was  George Floyd (a black man) who was killed by a cop using his foot on his throat, experiencing kamma vipaka?" "What discourses from the pāḷi canon are you aware of that this topic (lynching, police brutality) could potentially involve?
Personally i would have the sensitivity not to ask such a question. It is almost as if Pulsar was saying George Floyd deserved that, due to his past kamma.
Instead i should be outraged at the very notion of that query, as if inadvertently or intentionally i am going easy on a heinous crime, using kamma as my excuse.
See my point? I have not read the responses, but the manner in which question was asked seemed unfair to the victim being raped.
Rape is a funny issue, no one wants to talk about it, but not Ven Sujatho. He says in one of his many talks titled
"Far  Shore"
that a buddhist nun complained to him about being raped by a buddhist monk, so these outrageous things are a fact, that must not be ignored, even though discussing such creates a great deal of unease in all of us.
Perhaps OP asked the question to bring attention to an issue that deserves attention.
If so thank you. :candle:

Re: Is being a victim of rape 'kamma vipaka'

Posted: Sun Oct 25, 2020 10:42 am
by DooDoot
The2nd wrote: Thu Sep 10, 2020 11:39 pm Being born as a human is the result of certain actions, which results in being subject to the misfortunes of the human realm.
Have you ever read the suttas about what the term "human realm" means? :shrug:
It’s not because of deeds born of contentment, love, and understanding that hell, the animal realm, the ghost realm or any other bad places are found. Rather, it’s because of deeds born of contentment, love and understanding that gods, humans, or those in any other good places are found.

https://suttacentral.net/an6.39/en/sujato
Sooner, I say, would that blind turtle, coming to the surface once every hundred years, insert its neck into that yoke with a single hole than the fool who has gone once to the nether world would regain the human state. For what reason? Because here, bhikkhus, there is no conduct guided by the Dhamma, no righteous conduct, no wholesome activity, no meritorious activity. Here there prevails mutual devouring, the devouring of the weak. For what reason? Because, bhikkhus, they have not seen the Four Noble Truths. What four? The noble truth of suffering … the noble truth of the way leading to the cessation of suffering.

https://suttacentral.net/sn56.47/en/bodhi
:alien:
The2nd wrote: A person is responsible for being subject to another's actions....

Being subject to rape is ones vipaka....
It appears there are no suttas that support your view about rape. For example:
137. He who inflicts violence on those who are unarmed, and offends those who are inoffensive, will soon come upon one of these ten states:

138-140 Sharp pain, or disaster, bodily injury, serious illness, or derangement of mind, trouble from the government, or grave charges, loss of relatives, or loss of wealth, or houses destroyed by ravaging fire; upon dissolution of the body that ignorant man is born in hell.

Dhammapada