Kassapa Buddha's sīla

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rhinoceroshorn
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Kassapa Buddha's sīla

Post by rhinoceroshorn »

Sutta Nipāta (Āmagandha Sutta)
The Buddha Kassapa: taking life, beating,
wounding, binding, stealing, lying, deceiving, worthless knowledge, adultery; this is stench. Not the eating of meat.
In this part of this sutta Kassapa seems to be describing the basic sīla of his time, excluding the one about intoxicants.

1) taking life/beating/wounding/binding
2) stealing
3) lying/deceiving
4) adultery
5) worthless knowledge ????

It makes me think refraining from learning worthless things was a precept in his dispensation. :tongue:
Without resistance in all four directions,
content with whatever you get,
enduring troubles with no dismay,
wander alone
like a rhinoceros.
Sutta Nipāta 1.3 - Khaggavisana Sutta
Image
But if they hit you with a stick...?"
"...I will think, 'These people are very civilized, in that they don't hit me with a knife.'..."
"But if they hit you with a knife...?"
"...I will think, 'These people are very civilized, in that they don't take my life with a sharp knife.'..."
SN35.88
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rhinoceroshorn
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Re: Kassapa Buddha's sīla

Post by rhinoceroshorn »

Ven. Sujato's translation:
Answer
Taking life, torture, mutilation too,
binding, stealing, telling lies, and fraud;
deceit, adultery, and studying crooked views:
this is carrion-stench, not the eating of meat.
https://suttacentral.net/snp2.2/en/mills


Why would this be together with homicide and adultery if this was not so important? :jawdrop:
Without resistance in all four directions,
content with whatever you get,
enduring troubles with no dismay,
wander alone
like a rhinoceros.
Sutta Nipāta 1.3 - Khaggavisana Sutta
Image
But if they hit you with a stick...?"
"...I will think, 'These people are very civilized, in that they don't hit me with a knife.'..."
"But if they hit you with a knife...?"
"...I will think, 'These people are very civilized, in that they don't take my life with a sharp knife.'..."
SN35.88
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SDC
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Re: Kassapa Buddha's sīla

Post by SDC »

Not part of the current five precepts of Gotama, but there are plenty of suttas about wrong view leading to hell. I guess Buddha Kassapa felt it belonged in a more prominent position. Although virtue - in the basic sense of the five precepts - is usually refraining from the coarse action, so it seems more likely this had to do with propagating those wrong views, not just thinking them? Who knows.... Perhaps he just figured that since wrong view leads to hell, one should matter-of-factly just not do it. Gotama, being the foremost of the Buddhas, has every detail of the gradual turn towards right view, so it is no surprise what we have now is more comprehensive.
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DooDoot
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Re: Kassapa Buddha's sīla

Post by DooDoot »

rhinoceroshorn wrote: Fri Sep 11, 2020 8:14 pm Why would this be together with homicide and adultery if this was not so important? :jawdrop:
It might be important but copy & pasting it does not mean one is personally are free from studying such crooked views (ajjhenakuttaṃ), such as studying unnatural Hindu Yoga, which is unrelated to Natural Law (Dhamma Niyama).
New Concise Pali English Dictionary
ajjhena
neuter
learning, study (esp. of the Vedas); recitation.
kutta
neuter
“being made up.”
The term "ajjhenakuttaṃ" appears mean "studying made-up ideologies" (which is the opposite of direct natural insight into reality occurring from mere seeing). It appears Ven. Sujato's translation may not be accurate, given Ven. Sujato himself appears to be a master of ajjhenakuttaṃ.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati
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robertk
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Re: Kassapa Buddha's sīla

Post by robertk »

SDC wrote: Fri Sep 11, 2020 8:32 pm Not part of the current five precepts of Gotama, but there are plenty of suttas about wrong view leading to hell. I guess Buddha Kassapa felt it belonged in a more prominent position. Although virtue - in the basic sense of the five precepts - is usually refraining from the coarse action, so it seems more likely this had to do with propagating those wrong views, not just thinking them? Who knows.... Perhaps he just figured that since wrong view leads to hell, one should matter-of-factly just not do it. Gotama, being the foremost of the Buddhas, has every detail of the gradual turn towards right view, so it is no surprise what we have now is more comprehensive.
I think this is probably right. The term is uncommon but wrong views are one of the ten unwholesome ways, dasa-akusala-kamma-patha
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SDC
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Re: Kassapa Buddha's sīla

Post by SDC »

robertk wrote: Sat Sep 12, 2020 4:26 am
SDC wrote: Fri Sep 11, 2020 8:32 pm Not part of the current five precepts of Gotama, but there are plenty of suttas about wrong view leading to hell. I guess Buddha Kassapa felt it belonged in a more prominent position. Although virtue - in the basic sense of the five precepts - is usually refraining from the coarse action, so it seems more likely this had to do with propagating those wrong views, not just thinking them? Who knows.... Perhaps he just figured that since wrong view leads to hell, one should matter-of-factly just not do it. Gotama, being the foremost of the Buddhas, has every detail of the gradual turn towards right view, so it is no surprise what we have now is more comprehensive.
I think this is probably right. The term is uncommon but wrong views are one of the ten unwholesome ways, dasa-akusala-kamma-patha
Thanks, Robert. Indeed, much is conjecture, but it seems Buddha Gotama's abilities have a level of detail that the previous Buddha's dispensations did not. What would be mighty interesting to see is the way the next Buddha speaks about Gotama...."So hey listen, Gotama was like best, full on "G", so what we're gonna do is like try to emulate his Sasana. Rule number one: Mahayana was wack." :D
perkele
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Re: Kassapa Buddha's sīla

Post by perkele »

SDC wrote: Sat Sep 12, 2020 3:16 pm Thanks, Robert. Indeed, much is conjecture, but it seems Buddha Gotama's abilities have a level of detail that the previous Buddha's dispensations did not. What would be mighty interesting to see is the way the next Buddha speaks about Gotama...."So hey listen, Gotama was like best, full on "G", so what we're gonna do is like try to emulate his Sasana. Rule number one: Mahayana was wack." :D
Hey SDC!

What do you know about previous Buddhas' dispensations, except what can be heard/read about them in the suttas of "our" current Buddha's dispensation? Did Gotama Buddha ever "badmouth" his predecessors, saying his teaching is superior?

In fact, DN 28 gives an opposite impression: It seems the Buddha stated that there have been in the past and will be in the future Buddhas "equal in enlightenment" to him. But I see now that this might not mean teaching ability or detail. I wonder if there is anything to read about that. Can you point to some comparisons made between the comprehensiveness and level of detail of "our" Buddha's teachings and his predecessors' teachings?

And Mahayana did not exist yet at the time of the Buddha. I see that you're joking, of course, but I think that's just a bit too silly and nonsensical.
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SDC
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Re: Kassapa Buddha's sīla

Post by SDC »

perkele wrote: Sat Sep 12, 2020 5:06 pm I see that you're joking, of course, but I think that's just a bit too silly and nonsensical.
[Point reduction for SDC]
perkele
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Re: Kassapa Buddha's sīla

Post by perkele »

SDC wrote: Sat Sep 12, 2020 5:12 pm
perkele wrote: Sat Sep 12, 2020 5:06 pm I see that you're joking, of course, but I think that's just a bit too silly and nonsensical.
[Point reduction for SDC]
Yes.
But can you answer my question? What are the sources on which you base your statement that Gotama Buddha's dispensation is better, more detailed and comprehensive than other Buddhas' (in particular Buddha Kassapa's) dispensations?
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SDC
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Re: Kassapa Buddha's sīla

Post by SDC »

perkele wrote: Sat Sep 12, 2020 5:18 pm
SDC wrote: Sat Sep 12, 2020 5:12 pm
perkele wrote: Sat Sep 12, 2020 5:06 pm I see that you're joking, of course, but I think that's just a bit too silly and nonsensical.
[Point reduction for SDC]
Yes.
But can you answer my question? What are the sources on which you base your statement that Gotama Buddha's dispensation is better, more detailed and comprehensive than other Buddhas' (in particular Buddha Kassapa's) dispensations?
The very first chapter of the Vinaya shows that all were not the same. Clear as day. Please go read it. As far as his being the best, give me some time to locate an appropriate source.
perkele
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Re: Kassapa Buddha's sīla

Post by perkele »

SDC wrote: Sat Sep 12, 2020 5:25 pm The very first chapter of the Vinaya shows that all were not the same. Clear as day. Please go read it. As far as his being the best, give me some time to locate an appropriate source.
Thanks.
The first chapter of the Mahavagga? I skimmed through it and didn't find a comparison of Buddhas there.
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SDC
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Re: Kassapa Buddha's sīla

Post by SDC »

perkele wrote: Sat Sep 12, 2020 6:14 pm
SDC wrote: Sat Sep 12, 2020 5:25 pm The very first chapter of the Vinaya shows that all were not the same. Clear as day. Please go read it. As far as his being the best, give me some time to locate an appropriate source.
Thanks.
The first chapter of the Mahavagga? I skimmed through it and didn't find a comparison of Buddhas there.
The chapter of the first training rule contains the origin of the monastic code: here.
perkele
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Re: Kassapa Buddha's sīla

Post by perkele »

SDC wrote: Sat Sep 12, 2020 6:21 pm
perkele wrote: Sat Sep 12, 2020 6:14 pm
SDC wrote: Sat Sep 12, 2020 5:25 pm The very first chapter of the Vinaya shows that all were not the same. Clear as day. Please go read it. As far as his being the best, give me some time to locate an appropriate source.
Thanks.
The first chapter of the Mahavagga? I skimmed through it and didn't find a comparison of Buddhas there.
The chapter of the first training rule contains the origin of the monastic code: here.
Thank you. That's very interesting. I'll just add a long quote from it here for reference for anyone interested, hoping that's not too far off-topic in this thread:
Mahavagga 1.2: The Origin of the Monastic Law, Bhikkhu Brahmali trans. wrote: “Sāriputta, the dispensation established by Master Vipassī, Master Sikhī, and Master Vessabhū didn’t last long. But the dispensation established by Master Kakusandha, Master Konāgamana, and Master Kassapa did last long.”

“And what’s the reason why the dispensation established by Master Vipassī, Master Sikhī, and Master Vessabhū didn’t last long?”

“Master Vipassī, Master Sikhī, and Master Vessabhū were disinclined to give detailed teachings to their disciples. They gave few discourses in prose and in prose and verse, few expositions, verses, inspired utterances, quotations, birth stories, amazing accounts, and analyses; and they didn’t lay down training rules or recite a monastic code. After the disappearance of those Buddhas, after the disappearance of the disciples awakened under them, those who were the last disciples—of various names, clans, and social standing, who had gone forth from various families—allowed that dispensation to disappear rapidly. It’s just like flowers not tied with a thread to a wooden plank: they’re scattered about, whirled about, and destroyed by the wind. Why’s that? Because they’re not held together by a thread. Just so, after the disappearance of those Buddhas, after the disappearance of the disciples awakened under them, those who were the last disciples allowed that dispensation to disappear rapidly.

But those Masters were untiring in exhorting their disciples after reading their minds. At one time, Sāriputta, while staying in a certain frightening forest grove, Master Vessabhū, the Perfected and the fully Awakened One, instructed an Order of a thousand monks, reading their minds and saying, ‘Think like this, not like this; pay attention like this, not like this; abandon this; having attained this, abide in it.’ When those thousand monks had been instructed by Master Vessabhū, their minds were freed from the corruptions without grasping. But when anyone with sensual desire entered that frightening forest grove, usually their hair would stand on end. This is the reason why the dispensation established by Master Vipassī, Master Sikhī, and Master Vessabhū did not last long.”

“What then is the reason why the dispensation established by Master Kakusandha, Master Konāgamana, and Master Kassapa lasted long?”

“Master Kakusandha, Master Konāgamana, and Master Kassapa were diligent in giving detailed teachings to their disciples. They gave many discourses in prose and in prose and verse, many expositions, verses, inspired utterances, quotations, birth stories, amazing accounts, and analyses; and they laid down training rules and recited a monastic code. After the disappearance of those Buddhas, after the disappearance of the disciples awakened under them, those who were the last disciples—of various names, clans, and social standing, who had gone forth from various families—made that dispensation last for a long time. It’s just like flowers tied with a thread to a wooden plank: they are not scattered about, whirled about, or destroyed by the wind. Why is that? Because they are held together by a thread. Just so, after the disappearance of those Buddhas, after the disappearance of the disciples awakened under them, those who were the last disciples made that dispensation last for a long time. This is the reason why the dispensation established by Master Kakusandha, Master Konāgamana, and Master Kassapa lasted long.
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SDC
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Re: Kassapa Buddha's sīla

Post by SDC »

perkele wrote: Sat Sep 12, 2020 7:03 pm Thank you. That's very interesting.
Found a few sources for my other claim from a later text of the KN. Please give me a bit more time and hopefully it is something substantial enough.
perkele
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Re: Kassapa Buddha's sīla

Post by perkele »

SDC wrote: Sat Sep 12, 2020 8:28 pm
perkele wrote: Sat Sep 12, 2020 7:03 pm Thank you. That's very interesting.
Found a few sources for my other claim from a later text of the KN. Please give me a bit more time and hopefully it is something substantial enough.
Thanks, and please take your time. I am not in urgent need for this information, just mildly curious.
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