Kassapa Buddha's sīla

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SDC
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Re: Kassapa Buddha's sīla

Post by SDC »

perkele wrote: Sat Sep 12, 2020 10:11 pm Thanks, and please take your time. I am not in urgent need for this information, just mildly curious.
As far as the suttas go, the most definitive thing I could find were several in the Theragāthā and Therāpadāna of Khuddaka Nikāya. Now these are both considered later devotional texts, but nonetheless are the accounts of many arahants who were alive with the Buddha. The phrase "best of Buddhas" (buddhaseṭṭhassa) appears quite a few times. We have this in Mahāmoggallāna's verses:
Thag 20.1 wrote: Calm and quiet,
the sage in his remote lodging,
the heir to the best of Buddhas,
is honored even by Brahmā.
Now this notion could very easily be disputed and argued using DN 28 and a parallel SN 47.12, where we find Sariputta roaring his Lion's Roar that there is no other - past, present, and future - who's knowledge of awakening that is superior to the Buddha. The Buddha leaves the implication to stand relatively unopposed in SN 47.12 (although Sariputta goes on to qualify it, gaining the Buddha's approval), but at the end of DN 28 - a sutta that begins with the same claim - he makes the definitive statement that there have been others and there will be others who have equal knowledge of awakening as himself. This is confirmed also more directly in SN 56.24. It is worth noting that based on the Vinaya verse already mentioned, this equal "knowledge of awakening" does not imply equal ability to pass it on. (Edit: I see you mentioned this above)

This "best of Buddhas" (buddhaseṭṭhassa) is also found in a few places in the Vinaya. Not sure if this is convincing enough. It is a rare phrase as far as I've been able to find. I'm pretty sure the first time I read Gotama being the foremost was in a contemporary source without much to back it up. I appreciate you taking me to task on this.
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rightviewftw
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Re: Kassapa Buddha's sīla

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The 5th training rule is not included among kamma-kilesa, Sigalovada Sutta;
"Inasmuch, young householder, as the noble disciple (1) has eradicated the four vices in conduct,[kamma-kilesa] (2) inasmuch as he commits no evil action in four ways, (3) inasmuch as he pursues not the six channels for dissipating wealth, he thus, avoiding these fourteen evil things, covers the six quarters, and enters the path leading to victory in both worlds: he is favored in this world and in the world beyond. Upon the dissolution of the body, after death, he is born in a happy heavenly realm.

(1) "What are the four vices in conduct that he has eradicated? The destruction of life, householder, is a vice and so are stealing, sexual misconduct, and lying. These are the four vices that he has eradicated."
It is therein listed as a channel for dissipation of wealth;
"What are the six channels for dissipating wealth which he does not pursue?

(a) "indulgence in intoxicants which cause infatuation and heedlessness;
'Bhikkhus, possessing three qualities, a bhikkhu is practicing the unmistaken way and has laid the groundwork for the destruction of the taints. What three? Here, a bhikkhu guards the doors of the sense faculties, observes moderation in eating, and is intent on wakefulness. He should develop perception of unattractiveness so as to abandon lust... good will so as to abandon ill will... mindfulness of in-&-out breathing so as to cut off distractive thinking... the perception of inconstancy so as to uproot the conceit, 'I am.
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rhinoceroshorn
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Re: Kassapa Buddha's sīla

Post by rhinoceroshorn »

rightviewftw wrote: Sun Sep 13, 2020 10:29 am The 5th training rule is not included among kamma-kilesa, Sigalovada Sutta;
"Inasmuch, young householder, as the noble disciple (1) has eradicated the four vices in conduct,[kamma-kilesa] (2) inasmuch as he commits no evil action in four ways, (3) inasmuch as he pursues not the six channels for dissipating wealth, he thus, avoiding these fourteen evil things, covers the six quarters, and enters the path leading to victory in both worlds: he is favored in this world and in the world beyond. Upon the dissolution of the body, after death, he is born in a happy heavenly realm.

(1) "What are the four vices in conduct that he has eradicated? The destruction of life, householder, is a vice and so are stealing, sexual misconduct, and lying. These are the four vices that he has eradicated."
It is therein listed as a channel for dissipation of wealth;
"What are the six channels for dissipating wealth which he does not pursue?

(a) "indulgence in intoxicants which cause infatuation and heedlessness;
Thanks for sharing this. :o
Without resistance in all four directions,
content with whatever you get,
enduring troubles with no dismay,
wander alone
like a rhinoceros.
Sutta Nipāta 1.3 - Khaggavisana Sutta
Image
But if they hit you with a stick...?"
"...I will think, 'These people are very civilized, in that they don't hit me with a knife.'..."
"But if they hit you with a knife...?"
"...I will think, 'These people are very civilized, in that they don't take my life with a sharp knife.'..."
SN35.88
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SDC
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Re: Kassapa Buddha's sīla

Post by SDC »

perkele wrote: Sat Sep 12, 2020 10:11 pm ...
Upon some further investigation of the word buddhaseṭṭha, based on the case it often found (genitive), it looks to be insufficient as evidence that "best" would apply exclusively to Gotama himself. It looks to be saying that all Buddhas possess that which is the best. So back to the drawing board.

All in all, the Vinaya story is pretty substantial in describing the quality of the dispensations based on the quality of teachings given, and indeed there are significant differences, with Gotama clearly being one who gave very detailed instructions; but alas my assertion that Gotama is the absolute, sole foremost remains unsubstantiated. Perhaps what I ran with from the past was a case of him being in a class of the Supreme sort of Buddha, which the Vinaya story would fully support, although it would be a title he would be sharing with a few other Buddhas who also had very long-lasting dispensations.
perkele
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Re: Kassapa Buddha's sīla

Post by perkele »

SDC wrote: Sun Sep 13, 2020 12:50 pm
perkele wrote: Sat Sep 12, 2020 10:11 pm ...
Upon some further investigation of the word buddhaseṭṭha, based on the case it often found (genitive), it looks to be insufficient as evidence that "best" would apply exclusively to Gotama himself. It looks to be saying that all Buddhas possess that which is the best. So back to the drawing board.

All in all, the Vinaya story is pretty substantial in describing the quality of the dispensations based on the quality of teachings given, and indeed there are significant differences, with Gotama clearly being one who gave very detailed instructions; but alas my assertion that Gotama is the absolute, sole foremost remains unsubstantiated. Perhaps what I ran with from the past was a case of him being in a class of the Supreme sort of Buddha, which the Vinaya story would fully support, although it would be a title he would be sharing with a few other Buddhas who also had very long-lasting dispensations.
Thanks for these concluding remarks. I am satisfied with your research and have learnt something. :smile: :reading:
It seems establishing rules and explaining things in detail are a worthwhile pursuit that can lead to long-term welfare for many.
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