Jhana/nimitta/vimuttimagga v visuddimagga , etc

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auto
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Re: Jhana/nimitta/vimuttimagga v visuddimagga , etc

Post by auto »

i agree.
When sitting on a car or bus and watching trees without following them is most of the technique done. It is like stereoscopy, but without helping gadgets.
It is about how to join the eyes together properly and then maintain that during whatever activity. Then after weeks months, there start flashes of lights, like actual lighting during lighting storm, it can be seen happen with regular eyes.
These are signs for opening of an important cavity. Without that cavity open there won't arise any breath perception, thus that can be an issue when people won't believe what being said.
Point is, the initial practice is to get the light of the mind enter to the visual field past the limbic system and then objects will be seen differently - with depth and uniformly. And it won't happen by itself when the signs are happen then one day you can make it happen, it is voluntary and you suddenly know what to do in order to make it happen. So no skipping nor cheating possible.
'
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neocortex wrote: The neocortex, also called the neopallium, isocortex, or the six-layered cortex, is a set of layers of the mammalian cerebral cortex involved in higher-order brain functions such as sensory perception, cognition, generation of motor commands,[1] spatial reasoning and language.[2] The neocortex is further subdivided into the true isocortex and the proisocortex.[3]
i like to add the more you open up, the more things you do voluntarily, the quiescence or background automatic rulebound meditation is only a part.
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Lucas Oliveira
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Re: Jhana/nimitta/vimuttimagga v visuddimagga , etc

Post by Lucas Oliveira »

atipattoh wrote: Fri Sep 25, 2020 7:41 am
The good thing is, if one meditates diligently, guarding his 3 doors, then even if his meditation does not comes to the stage of parikamma nimitta, he still goes to heaven as long as there is no present of immediate unfavorable kamma.
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Re: Jhana/nimitta/vimuttimagga v visuddimagga , etc

Post by Lucas Oliveira »

atipattoh wrote: Tue Sep 22, 2020 3:06 am
The point is in my earlier post, visual image is not a real physical object, if it were given a definitive definition as a name for it, especially Light also can be problematic. There is a stage of meditation, that due to pressure on both end side of the eye, right and left, produces fire element that can be sense by sight, giving some kind dime light vision, but not yet the nimitta. Still, these is good development as long as you don't take it as final achievement. Just stay with your object, the breath, let nimitta develop naturally.
auto wrote: Fri Sep 25, 2020 12:01 pm
just to add more information in the topic ..
Aura (symptom)

An aura is a perceptual disturbance experienced by some with epilepsy or migraine.

Epileptic and migraine auras are due to the involvement of specific areas of the brain, which are those that determine the symptoms of the aura. Therefore, if the visual area is affected, the aura will consist of visual symptoms, while if a sensory one, then sensory symptoms will occur.

Epileptic auras are subjective sensory or psychic phenomena due to a focal seizure, i.e. a seizure that originates from that area of the brain responsible for the function which then expresses itself with the symptoms of the aura. It is important because it makes it clear where the alteration causing the seizure is located. An epileptic aura is in most cases followed by other manifestations of a seizure, for example a convulsion, since the epileptic discharge spreads to other parts of the brain. Rarely it remains isolated. Auras, when they occur, allow some people who have epilepsy time to prevent injury to themselves and/or others when they lose consciousness.

The aura of migraine is visual in the vast majority of cases, because dysfunction starts from the visual cortex. The aura is usually followed, after a time varying from minutes to an hour, by the migraine headache. However, the migraine aura can manifest itself in isolation, that is, without being followed by headache. The aura can stay with a migraine sufferer for the duration of the migraine; depending on the type of aura, it can leave the person disoriented and confused. It is common for migraine sufferers to experience more than one type of aura during the migraine. Most people who have auras have the same type of aura every time.

Auras can also be confused with sudden onset of panic, panic attacks or anxiety attacks, which creates difficulties in diagnosis. The differential diagnosis of patients who experience symptoms of paresthesias, derealization, dizziness, chest pain, tremors, and palpitations can be quite challenging.[1]

Image
Artist's depiction of zig-zag lines appearing as part of a migraine aura phenomenon

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aura_(symptom)
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Re: Jhana/nimitta/vimuttimagga v visuddimagga , etc

Post by auto »

Lucas Oliveira wrote: Fri Sep 25, 2020 3:50 pm ..
There are books with practice descriptions and signs what supposed to appear. With important nerve pathways. Practice and natural occurrences can be mutual besides using same pathways.
But still you should grasp at least that much to differentiate if the sign is because of your practice or you have not been out in the fresh air for longer time or coming out of alcohol binge or some other activity what causes false light to appear.

And for horror, you may do practice and get false light. Vipassana modern schools(as much i have read) attribute all kinds of lights useless something to ignore, which when it comes to yoga there are correct, important lights too.
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Re: Jhana/nimitta/vimuttimagga v visuddimagga , etc

Post by bazzaman »

I liked the video of the woman spinning cotton. Always interesting to listen to someone talk about something they know well from direct experience.
Atāṇo loko anabhissaro...

Yena yena hi maññanti tato taṃ hoti aññathā,
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Re: Jhana/nimitta/vimuttimagga v visuddimagga , etc

Post by atipattoh »

bazzaman wrote: Sat Sep 26, 2020 12:36 am I liked the video of the woman spinning cotton. Always interesting to listen to someone talk about something they know well from direct experience.
:namaste: Glad that you find the video helpful.
Lucas Oliveira wrote: Aura (symptom)

An aura is a perceptual disturbance experienced by some with epilepsy or migraine.

Epileptic and migraine auras are due to the involvement of specific areas of the brain, which are those that determine the symptoms of the aura. Therefore, if the visual area is affected, the aura will consist of visual symptoms, while if a sensory one, then sensory symptoms will occur.
The zig-zag pattern looks like cognitive failure of the mind, perhaps there was no continuity in cognition.
auto wrote: Fri Sep 25, 2020 12:01 pm When sitting on a car or bus and watching trees without following them is most of the technique done. It is like stereoscopy, but without helping gadgets.
I think what auto is describing is to see the object with the mind. It is different from cognitive failure, but enhancement. It is like taking only 1 frame/second instead of 30. The rest of the time of the 29 frames, the mind repetitively cognize the same object. It is not by concentrating with the eye, but rather "sit back", and intermittently plunge into the mind and access the visual "data" and work on it, so that more lasting visual is cognized.

I would say it is similar to the Saw simile. Assuming that the bus is circling a round-about, and the mind only cognized the very same spot from the window of the bus every time it passes that spot, then the mind does not see any other image that the eye consciousness captured. To the mind, there is one and only one scene.
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Re: Jhana/nimitta/vimuttimagga v visuddimagga , etc

Post by auto »

vis wrote:Mindfulness of breathing must be apprehended by the touched
.
vis wrote:123. Now the words and he should apprehend are illustrated as follows. After
approaching the good friend of the kind described in the explanation of the words
then approach the good friend, the giver of a meditation subject (§28 and §57–73), the
meditator should dedicate himself to the Blessed One, the Enlightened One, or to
a teacher, and he should ask for the meditation subject with a sincere inclination
[of the heart] and sincere resolution.
After touch you take breath as object of mindfulness = breath/air perception. It is logical since you shouldn't even know before that you will have breath, you will know that it is breath after the touch contact. Sati=exist.
In short,
unknown -> touch -> breath perception
vis wrote:124. Herein, he should dedicate himself to the Blessed One, the Enlightened One,
in this way: “Blessed One, I relinquish this my person to you.” For without having
thus dedicated himself, when living in a remote abode he might be unable to stand
fast if a frightening object made its appearance, and he might return to a village
abode, become associated with laymen, take up improper search and come to ruin.
But when he has dedicated himself in this way no fear arises in him if a frightening
object makes its appearance; in fact only joy arises in him as he reflects: “Have you
not wisely already dedicated yourself to the Enlightened One?”
i relinquish this 'breath perception' to breath = breath exists. Unknown is not unknown anymore, it is breath.
There still is conceit,
the aspect of mind what already knows it is breath is what ordinary persons are using, it is ordinary knowledge. The nimitta is what give you hint towards unknown during the time breath is existing. I think it is the saw simile of not attending to the back and forth going of the saw, which are the ordinary perceptions/identifications/sakkaya ditthi.
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Re: Jhana/nimitta/vimuttimagga v visuddimagga , etc

Post by Lucas Oliveira »

auto wrote: Tue Sep 29, 2020 2:16 pm
vis wrote:123. Now the words and he should apprehend are illustrated as follows. After
approaching the good friend of the kind described in the explanation of the words
then approach the good friend, the giver of a meditation subject (§28 and §57–73), the
meditator should dedicate himself to the Blessed One, the Enlightened One, or to
a teacher, and he should ask for the meditation subject with a sincere inclination
[of the heart] and sincere resolution.
vis wrote:124. Herein, he should dedicate himself to the Blessed One, the Enlightened One,
in this way: “Blessed One, I relinquish this my person to you.” For without having
thus dedicated himself, when living in a remote abode he might be unable to stand
fast if a frightening object made its appearance, and he might return to a village
abode, become associated with laymen, take up improper search and come to ruin.
But when he has dedicated himself in this way no fear arises in him if a frightening
object makes its appearance; in fact only joy arises in him as he reflects: “Have you
not wisely already dedicated yourself to the Enlightened One?”
important that part too ..

I do a puja before meditation, but any pleasure in meditation, mind already goes to some mundane matter.

this "sincere inclination [from the heart] and sincere resolve "I still have to develop more seriously.
How many of you really tried to attain jhana?
https://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=43&t=36839
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Re: Jhana/nimitta/vimuttimagga v visuddimagga , etc

Post by auto »

Lucas Oliveira wrote: Wed Sep 30, 2020 1:34 am important that part too ..

I do a puja before meditation, but any pleasure in meditation, mind already goes to some mundane matter.

this "sincere inclination [from the heart] and sincere resolve "I still have to develop more seriously.
How many of you really tried to attain jhana?
https://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=43&t=36839
:anjali:
the sincere inclination is in the context of,
121. 10. As to suitability to temperament: ..
122. All this has been stated in the form of direct opposition and complete
suitability. But there is actually no profitable development that does not suppress
greed, etc., and help faith, and so on. And this is said in the Meghiya Sutta: “[One]
should, in addition,36 develop these four things: foulness should be developed for
the purpose of abandoning greed (lust). Loving-kindness should be developed for
the purpose of abandoning ill will. [115] Mindfulness of breathing should be
developed for the purpose of cutting off applied thought. Perception of
impermanence should be cultivated for the purpose of eliminating the conceit, ‘I
am’” (A IV 358). Also in the Ráhula Sutta, in the passage beginning, “Develop
loving-kindness, Ráhula” (M I 424), seven meditation subjects are given for a single
temperament. So instead of insisting on the mere letter, the intention should be
sought in each instance.
intent is object, that it is metta or some other is gotten to know based on this intent. Other words you can do any practice but it is auxiliary and should keep eyes open for the intent.
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Re: Theravada if it includes Buddhaghosa is schismatic

Post by Lucas Oliveira »

greenjuice wrote: Wed Sep 09, 2020 8:49 pm I wouldn't go as far to say schismatic, but yes, Buddhaghosa's talk of nimittas is curiously different than previous such talk.

The Vimuttimagga (from 100 CE) says the following about the nimitta (sign) in the section Mindfulness of Breathing – Procedure:

"To the yogin who attends to the incoming breath with mind that is cleansed of the nine lesser defilements the nimitta arises with a pleasant feeling similar to that which is produced in the action of spinning cotton or silk cotton. Also, it is likened to the pleasant feeling produced by a breeze. Thus during breathing in and out, air touches the nose or the lip and causes the setting-up of air perception mindfulness. This does not depend on colour or form. This is called the nimitta. If the yogin develops the nimitta and increases it at the nose-tip, between the eyebrows, on the forehead or establishes it in several places, he feels as if his head were filled with air. Through increasing in this way his whole body is charged with bliss. This is called perfection.

And again, there is a yogin he sees several nimittas from the beginning. He sees various forms such as smoke, mist, dust, sand of gold, or he experiences something similar to the pricking of a needle or to an ant's bite. If his mind does not become clear regarding these different nimittas, he will be confused. Thus he fulfils overturning and does not gain the perception of respiration. If his mind becomes clear, the yogin does not experience confusion. He attends to respiration and he does not cause the arising of other perceptions. ... If his mind is not disturbed, he will destroy the hindrances, and arouse the jhāna factors."

But in the Visuddhimagga 400 years later nimittas, and in particular the visual nimittas, become the object of focused attention that brings one to full absorption and thence to the jhānas. The change is not a slight one, it's the opposite thing. In Vimuttimagga visual nimittas are the visual signs of good concentration that should be ignored, whereas in Visuddhimagga visual sign becoming the heart of the method.
Another question ...

Why does Vimuttimagga call the practitioner "yogin"?
The Vimuttimagga ("Path of Freedom") is a Buddhist practice manual, traditionally attributed to the Arahant Upatissa (c. 1st or 2nd century[1]). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vimuttimagga
Why not call Bhikkhu or Monk the same in Satipaṭṭhāna Sutta?
“There is the case where a monk—having gone to the wilderness, to the shade of a tree, or to an empty building—sits down folding his legs crosswise, holding his body erect and establishing mindfulness to the fore.6 Always mindful, he breathes in; mindful he breathes out.
https://www.dhammatalks.org/suttas/DN/DN22.html
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Re: Theravada if it includes Buddhaghosa is schismatic

Post by Coëmgenu »

Lucas Oliveira wrote: Sun Dec 06, 2020 3:40 amWhy does Vimuttimagga call the practitioner "yogin"?

[...]

Why not call Bhikkhu or Monk the same in Satipaṭṭhāna Sutta?
I think it is an artefact of the translation from Chinese.
Then, the monks sang this gāthā:

These bodies are like foam.
Them being frail, who can rejoice in them?
The Buddha attained the vajra-body.
Still, it becomes inconstant and rots.
The many Buddhas are vajra-entities.
All are also subject to inconstancy.
Quickly ended, like melting snow --
how could things be different?

The Buddha passed into parinirvāṇa afterward.

(T1.27b10 Mahāparinirvāṇasūtra DĀ 2)
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Re: Theravada if it includes Buddhaghosa is schismatic

Post by Lucas Oliveira »

Coëmgenu wrote: Sun Dec 06, 2020 3:43 am
Lucas Oliveira wrote: Sun Dec 06, 2020 3:40 amWhy does Vimuttimagga call the practitioner "yogin"?

[...]

Why not call Bhikkhu or Monk the same in Satipaṭṭhāna Sutta?
I think it is an artefact of the translation from Chinese.
Possibly
The Vimuttimagga ("Path of Freedom") is a Buddhist practice manual, traditionally attributed to the Arahant Upatissa (c. 1st or 2nd century[1]). It was translated into Chinese in the sixth century as the Jietuo dao lun 解脫道論 by Sanghapala. The original text (possibly Pali or Buddhist Hybrid Sanskrit) is no longer extant, but the work has survived in Chinese. The book was probably written in India and then later brought to Sri Lanka.[1] Some doctrines of the Vimuttimagga have been associated with those attributed to the Abhayagiri monastery by Dhammapāla, but this has been disputed in recent scholarship.[2][3]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vimuttimagga
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Re: Jhana/nimitta/vimuttimagga v visuddimagga , etc

Post by Lucas Oliveira »

Relationship to the Visuddhimagga

The Vimuttimagga bears a striking similarity to the Visuddhimagga by Buddhagosa, and it is highly probable that it had an influence on Buddhagosa.[5] While the Visuddhimagga is a much longer work, both texts differ on several points. According to Bhikkhu Analayo, the Chinese version of the Vimuttimagga states that ascetic practices (dhutanga) can be unwholesome and wholesome while the Visuddhimagga denies that they can be unwholesome, although he notes that the Tibetan Vimuktimārga classifies ascetic practices as "wholesome".[6] A similar difference can be seen with regards to concentration (samādhi) which the Vimuttimagga states can be wholesome or unwholesome (micchā samādhi/邪定) while the Visuddhimagga disagrees that it can be unwholesome.[7] Another major difference is in the scheme of the progress of insight, which the Vimuttimagga arranges based on the four noble truths and the Visuddhimagga arranges based on the seven purifications which stem from the Rathavinīta-sutta.[8]

Minor differences can also be seen in the particular schemes of practice. Upatissa gives four categories of Śīla while Buddhagosa gives five. Upatissa gives four ways of cultivating Anapanasati, while Buddhagosa gives eight.[5] In addition, the Visuddhimagga identifies forty subjects of meditation (kammatthana) while the Vimuttimagga identifies thirty-eight.[9]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vimuttimagga
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