PeterC86 wrote: ↑Fri Sep 25, 2020 7:13 am
SteRo wrote: ↑Fri Sep 25, 2020 6:41 am
Where is there mention that the 8th jhana would have a fruition that is Pannavimutti?
I found it being mentioned on the website Access to insight. To clear this up from a theravada perspective, not that it is any of my concern though, but also in Theravada, Citta refers to mind and Pānnā to intellect (wisdom). Which means the confusion is not between Early Buddhism and Theravada, but in Ceisiwr's mind. An excerpt from https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/aut ... el351.html
Jhana and the Arahant
From the standpoint of their spiritual stature the seven types of noble persons can be divided into three categories. The first, which includes the faith-devotee and the truth-devotee, consists of those on the path of stream-entry, the first of the eight noble individuals. The second category, comprising the one liberated by faith, the body-witness and the one attained to understanding, consists of those on the six intermediate levels, from the stream-enterer to one on the path of arahatship. The third category, comprising the one liberated in both ways and the one liberated by wisdom, consists only of arahats.
The ubhatobhagavimutta, "one liberated in both ways," and the paññavimutta "one liberated by wisdom," thus form the terms of a twofold typology of arahats distinguished on the basis of their accomplishment in jhana. The ubhatobhagavimutta arahant experiences in his own person the "peaceful deliverances" of the immaterial sphere, the paññavimutta arahant lacks this full experience of the immaterial jhanas. Each of these two types, according to the commentaries, again becomes fivefold — the ubhatobhagavimutta by way of those who possess the ascending four immaterial jhanas and the attainment of cessation, the paññavimutta by way of those who reach arahatship after emerging from one of the four fine-material jhanas and the dry-insight meditator whose insight lacks the support of mundane jhana.
The possibility of attaining the supramundane path without possession of a mundane jhana has been questioned by some Theravada scholars, but the Visuddhimagga clearly admits this possibility when it distinguishes between the path arisen in a dry-insight meditator and the path arisen in one who possesses a jhana but does not use it as a basis for insight (Vism.666-67; PP.779). Textual evidence that there can be arahats lacking mundane jhana is provided by the Susima Sutta (S.ii, 199-23) together with is commentaries. When the monks in the sutta are asked how they can be arahats without possessing supernormal powers of the immaterial attainments, they reply: "We are liberated by wisdom" (paññavimutta kho mayam). The commentary glosses this reply thus: "We are contemplatives, dry-insight meditators, liberated by wisdom alone" (Mayam nijjhanaka sukkhavipassaka paññamatten'eva vimutta ti, SA.ii,117). The commentary also states that the Buddha gave his long disquisition on insight in the sutta "to show the arising of knowledge even without concentration" (vina pi samadhimevam nanuppattidassanattham, SA.ii,117). The subcommentary establishes the point by explaining "even without concentration" to mean "even without concentration previously accomplished reaching the mark of serenity" (samathalakkhanappattam purimasiddhamvina pi samadhin ti), adding that this is said in reference to one who makes insight his vehicle (ST.ii,125).
In contrast to the paññavimutta arahats, those arahats who are ubhatobhagavimutta enjoy a twofold liberation. Through their mastery over the formless attainments they are liberated from the material body (rupakaya), capable of dwelling in this very life in the meditations corresponding to the immaterial planes of existence; through their attainment of arahatship they are liberated from the mental body (namakaya), presently free from all defilements and sure of final emancipation from future becoming. Paññavimutta arahats only possess the second of these two liberations.
The double liberation of the ubhatobhagavimutta arahant should not be confused with another double liberation frequently mentioned in the suttas in connection with arahatship. This second pair of liberations, called cetovimutti paññavimutti, "liberation of mind, liberation by wisdom," is shared by all arahats. It appears in the stock passage descriptive of arahatship: "With the destruction of the cankers he here and now enters and dwells in the cankerless liberation of mind, liberation by wisdom, having realized it for himself with direct knowledge." That this twofold liberation belongs to paññavimutta arahats as well as those who are ubhatobhagavimutta is made clear by the Putta Sutta, where the stock passage is used for two types of arahats called the "white lotus recluse" and the "red lotus recluse":
How, monks, is a person a white lotus recluse (samanapundarika)? Here, monks, with the destruction of the cankers a monk here and now enters and dwells in the cankerless liberation of mind, liberation by wisdom, having realized it for himself with direct knowledge. Yet he does not dwell experiencing the eight deliverances with his body. Thus, monks, a person is a white lotus recluse.
And how, monks, is a person a red lotus recluse (samanapaduma)? Here, monks, with the destruction of the cankers a monk here and now enters and dwells in the cankerless liberation of mind, liberation by wisdom, having realized it for himself with direct knowledge. And he dwells experiencing the eight deliverances with his body. Thus, monks, a person is a red lotus recluse. (A.ii,87)
Since the description of these two types coincides with that of paññavimutta and ubhatobhagavimutta the two pairs may be identified, the white lotus recluse with the paññavimutta, the red lotus recluse with the ubhatobhagavimutta. Yet the paññavimutta arahant, while lacking the experience of the eight deliverances, still has both liberation of mind and liberation by wisdom.
When liberation of mind and liberation by wisdom are joined together and described as "cankerless" (anasava), they can be taken to indicate two aspects of the arahant's deliverance. Liberation of mind signifies the release of his mind from craving and its associated defilements, liberation by wisdom the release from ignorance: "With the fading away of lust there is liberation of mind, with the fading away of ignorance there is liberation by wisdom" (A.i,61). "As he sees and understands thus his mind is liberated from the canker of sensual desire, from the canker of existence, from the canker of ignorance" (M.i,183-84) — here release from the first two cankers can be understood as liberation of mind, release from the canker of ignorance as liberation by wisdom. In the commentaries "liberation of mind" is identified with the concentration factor in the fruition attainment of arahatship, "liberation by wisdom" with the wisdom factor.
Since every arahant reaches arahatship through the Noble Eightfold Path, he must have attained supramundane jhana in the form of right concentration, the eighth factor of the path, defined as the four jhanas. This jhana remains with him as the concentration of the fruition attainment of arahatship, which occurs at the level of supramundane jhana corresponding to that of his path. Thus he always stands in possession of at least the supramundane jhana of fruition, called the "cankerless liberation of mind." However, this consideration does not reflect back on his mundane attainments, requiring that every arahant possess mundane jhana.
Although early Buddhism acknowledges the possibility of a dry-visioned arahatship, the attitude prevails that jhanas are still desirable attributes in an arahant. They are of value not only prior to final attainment, as a foundation for insight, but retain their value even afterwards. The value of jhana in the stage of arahatship, when all spiritual training has been completed, is twofold. One concerns the arahant's inner experience, the other his outer significance as a representative of the Buddha's dispensation.
And as Lars Ims pointed out in his paper 'Cetovimutti or liberation of mind';
The citta influenced by desire (kāma and bhava) desires, hates, binds itself, gets involved, acts, creates karmic results, suffers karmic consequences and so forth, while the paññā influenced by avijjā (and later also diṭṭhi) keeps misunderstanding what the world is, what the self is, during the process of which it creates a life of untruth. It is all delusion and confusion. Citta and paññā operate together, as they are the two sides of the same human psyche or consciousness, comprising a complex system of the khandhas or personality factors. Citta could not desire the possession of a physical object unless there were present an ignorance of the empty or ephemeral nature of the object, and the knowledge that attaching itself to it would eventually lead to suffering. And - by extension - life itself as a human would be understood to end in disease, old age and death, and with this knowledge the citta would not be inclined to bind itself, understood as clinging to the five personality factors.
So Pānnā is translated as 'wisdom' (intellect), and Citta is translated as 'mind' (emotional, faculty of feeling; the base of perception), even for Theravada. Although the teaching of Nāgārjuna seems to imply a dry insight liberation, leading to Pannavimutti only, so not a twofold liberation.
Aṅguttara Nikāya (A.i.61): There is samatha and there is vipassanā. Samatha, monks, what happens when it is cultivated? The mind (citta) is cultivated. Citta being cultivated, what happens? The desire is abandoned. Vipassanā, monks, what happens when it is cultivated? Paññā is cultivated. When intellect (paññā) is cultivated, what happens? The ignorance is abandoned. The citta, monks, cannot be liberated if it is defiled by desire. The paññā defiled by ignorance is not cultivated. Indeed, monks, abandonment of desire is mind liberation (cetovimutti), and abandonment of ignorance is intellect liberation (paññāvimutti).
The translation above is probably from Lars Ims. He just made the obvious connection of mind referring to the emotional mind; faculty of feeling, and wisdom relating to intellect. The original text, in Pali I presume;
Samatho ca vipassanā ca. Samatho, bhikkhave, bhāvito kamattham anubhoti? Cittaṃ bhāvīyati. Cittaṃ bhāvitaṃ kamattham anubhoti? Yo rāgo so pahīyati. Vipassanā, bhikkhave, bhāvitā kamattham anubhoti? paññā bhāvīyati. paññā bhāvitā kamattham anubhoti? Yā avijjā sā pahīyati. Rāgupakkiliṭṭhaṃ vā, bhikkhave, cittaṃ na vimuccati, avijjupakkiliṭṭhā vā paññā bhāvīyati. Iti kho, bhikkhave, rāgavirāgā cetovimutti, avijjāvirāgā paññāvimuttī’’ti.
Well, good luck here.
I will be leaving this forum, and will head over to the Dharmapaths forum.