grasping and non-grasping

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auto
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grasping and non-grasping

Post by auto »

https://suttacentral.net/sn35.118/en/sujato wrote:“Lord of gods, there are sights known by the eye that are likable, desirable, agreeable, pleasant, sensual, and arousing.
“Santi kho, devānaminda, cakkhuviññeyyā rūpā, iṭṭhā kantā manāpā piyarūpā kāmūpasaṃhitā rajanīyā.
If a mendicant approves, welcomes, and keeps clinging to them,Tañce bhikkhu abhinandati abhivadati ajjhosāya tiṭṭhati.
their consciousness relies on that and grasps it.Tassa taṃ abhinandato abhivadato ajjhosāya tiṭṭhato tannissitaṃ viññāṇaṃ hoti tadupādānaṃ.

A mendicant with grasping does not become extinguished.Saupādāno, devānaminda, bhikkhu no parinibbāyati … pe ….
https://dictionary.sutta.org/browse/a/ajjhos%C4%81ya/ wrote:PTS Pali-English dictionary The Pali Text Society's Pali-English dictionary

Ajjhosāya,[ger. of ajjhosati,cp. BSk. adhyavasāya tiṣṭhati Divy 37,534] being tied to,hanging on,attached to,only in phrase a. tiṭṭhati (+ abhinandati,same in Divy) M.I,266; S. IV.36 sq.; 60,71 sq.; Miln.69. See also ajjhosa. (Page 12)
Grasping means approving/acknowledge(not denying) sights, sounds.. what are arousing but not yet aren't - they need certain amount of dedication in order for consciousness to follow.

Non-grasping is fulfilling the above but without approving, welcoming because by then one knows conditioned dhamma, there is no need for participation.
--
I wonder if non-grasping could refer to the jhāna, there is no rupa in jhāna, secluded, away(farness) for consciousness to be able to grasp while mendicant still can get the effects what could grasping bring.

what you think grasping is?
chownah
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Re: grasping and non-grasping

Post by chownah »

I think that grasping is the act of becoming attached. Experiences arise through the six sense media.....if a person grasps at those experiences then that person becomes attached to those experiences.....being attached to pleasant experiences leads one to crave for them and to seek them out again leading one back to a reply of that experience which is grasped again leading to attachment and further craving....this is a feedback loop leading to nothing but the same.....

But a person does not need to grasp. To avoid grasping one can observe that the grasping comes about through the false sense of identity which comes about through ignorance when it leads to the process of dependent origination.

I think that a good first step in helping to get a grip on grasping (pun intended) is the development of equanimity....when experiences are met with equanimity ones composure is not disturbed so craving does not arise.....I guess....don't know for sure.....
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confusedlayman
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Re: grasping and non-grasping

Post by confusedlayman »

auto wrote: Sun Oct 04, 2020 3:02 pm
https://suttacentral.net/sn35.118/en/sujato wrote:“Lord of gods, there are sights known by the eye that are likable, desirable, agreeable, pleasant, sensual, and arousing.
“Santi kho, devānaminda, cakkhuviññeyyā rūpā, iṭṭhā kantā manāpā piyarūpā kāmūpasaṃhitā rajanīyā.
If a mendicant approves, welcomes, and keeps clinging to them,Tañce bhikkhu abhinandati abhivadati ajjhosāya tiṭṭhati.
their consciousness relies on that and grasps it.Tassa taṃ abhinandato abhivadato ajjhosāya tiṭṭhato tannissitaṃ viññāṇaṃ hoti tadupādānaṃ.

A mendicant with grasping does not become extinguished.Saupādāno, devānaminda, bhikkhu no parinibbāyati … pe ….
https://dictionary.sutta.org/browse/a/ajjhos%C4%81ya/ wrote:PTS Pali-English dictionary The Pali Text Society's Pali-English dictionary

Ajjhosāya,[ger. of ajjhosati,cp. BSk. adhyavasāya tiṣṭhati Divy 37,534] being tied to,hanging on,attached to,only in phrase a. tiṭṭhati (+ abhinandati,same in Divy) M.I,266; S. IV.36 sq.; 60,71 sq.; Miln.69. See also ajjhosa. (Page 12)
Grasping means approving/acknowledge(not denying) sights, sounds.. what are arousing but not yet aren't - they need certain amount of dedication in order for consciousness to follow.

Non-grasping is fulfilling the above but without approving, welcoming because by then one knows conditioned dhamma, there is no need for participation.
--
I wonder if non-grasping could refer to the jhāna, there is no rupa in jhāna, secluded, away(farness) for consciousness to be able to grasp while mendicant still can get the effects what could grasping bring.

what you think grasping is?
Delighting or hugging

Buddha also have knowingness but dont delight
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
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Bundokji
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Re: grasping and non-grasping

Post by Bundokji »

In the context of MN22, the water snake simile, "grasping" was not taught in contrast to non-grasping, but right-graspedness of the Dhammas is presented as:
Having studied the Dhamma, they ascertain the meaning of those Dhammas with their discernment. Having ascertained the meaning of those Dhammas with their discernment, they come to an agreement through pondering.
What should not be done was also mentioned:
They don't study the Dhamma either for attacking others or for defending themselves in debate.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
SarathW
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Re: grasping and non-grasping

Post by SarathW »

I think, "Tanha" is the pali word for grasping.
It is the eighth limb of dependent origination.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
chownah
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Re: grasping and non-grasping

Post by chownah »

SteRo
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Re: grasping and non-grasping

Post by SteRo »

auto wrote: Sun Oct 04, 2020 3:02 pm
https://suttacentral.net/sn35.118/en/sujato wrote:“Lord of gods, there are sights known by the eye that are likable, desirable, agreeable, pleasant, sensual, and arousing.
“Santi kho, devānaminda, cakkhuviññeyyā rūpā, iṭṭhā kantā manāpā piyarūpā kāmūpasaṃhitā rajanīyā.
If a mendicant approves, welcomes, and keeps clinging to them,Tañce bhikkhu abhinandati abhivadati ajjhosāya tiṭṭhati.
their consciousness relies on that and grasps it.Tassa taṃ abhinandato abhivadato ajjhosāya tiṭṭhato tannissitaṃ viññāṇaṃ hoti tadupādānaṃ.

A mendicant with grasping does not become extinguished.Saupādāno, devānaminda, bhikkhu no parinibbāyati … pe ….
https://dictionary.sutta.org/browse/a/ajjhos%C4%81ya/ wrote:PTS Pali-English dictionary The Pali Text Society's Pali-English dictionary

Ajjhosāya,[ger. of ajjhosati,cp. BSk. adhyavasāya tiṣṭhati Divy 37,534] being tied to,hanging on,attached to,only in phrase a. tiṭṭhati (+ abhinandati,same in Divy) M.I,266; S. IV.36 sq.; 60,71 sq.; Miln.69. See also ajjhosa. (Page 12)
Grasping means approving/acknowledge(not denying) sights, sounds.. what are arousing but not yet aren't - they need certain amount of dedication in order for consciousness to follow.

Non-grasping is fulfilling the above but without approving, welcoming because by then one knows conditioned dhamma, there is no need for participation.
--
I wonder if non-grasping could refer to the jhāna, there is no rupa in jhāna, secluded, away(farness) for consciousness to be able to grasp while mendicant still can get the effects what could grasping bring.

what you think grasping is?
Why are you asking for personal opinions?

https://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?p=344574#p344574
Exhaling अ and inhaling धीः amounts to བྷྲཱུཾ་བི་ཤྭ་བི་ཤུད་དྷེ
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confusedlayman
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Re: grasping and non-grasping

Post by confusedlayman »

SteRo wrote: Mon Oct 05, 2020 5:42 am
auto wrote: Sun Oct 04, 2020 3:02 pm
https://suttacentral.net/sn35.118/en/sujato wrote:“Lord of gods, there are sights known by the eye that are likable, desirable, agreeable, pleasant, sensual, and arousing.
“Santi kho, devānaminda, cakkhuviññeyyā rūpā, iṭṭhā kantā manāpā piyarūpā kāmūpasaṃhitā rajanīyā.
If a mendicant approves, welcomes, and keeps clinging to them,Tañce bhikkhu abhinandati abhivadati ajjhosāya tiṭṭhati.
their consciousness relies on that and grasps it.Tassa taṃ abhinandato abhivadato ajjhosāya tiṭṭhato tannissitaṃ viññāṇaṃ hoti tadupādānaṃ.

A mendicant with grasping does not become extinguished.Saupādāno, devānaminda, bhikkhu no parinibbāyati … pe ….
https://dictionary.sutta.org/browse/a/ajjhos%C4%81ya/ wrote:PTS Pali-English dictionary The Pali Text Society's Pali-English dictionary

Ajjhosāya,[ger. of ajjhosati,cp. BSk. adhyavasāya tiṣṭhati Divy 37,534] being tied to,hanging on,attached to,only in phrase a. tiṭṭhati (+ abhinandati,same in Divy) M.I,266; S. IV.36 sq.; 60,71 sq.; Miln.69. See also ajjhosa. (Page 12)
Grasping means approving/acknowledge(not denying) sights, sounds.. what are arousing but not yet aren't - they need certain amount of dedication in order for consciousness to follow.

Non-grasping is fulfilling the above but without approving, welcoming because by then one knows conditioned dhamma, there is no need for participation.
--
I wonder if non-grasping could refer to the jhāna, there is no rupa in jhāna, secluded, away(farness) for consciousness to be able to grasp while mendicant still can get the effects what could grasping bring.

what you think grasping is?
Why are you asking for personal opinions?

https://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?p=344574#p344574
because personal exp can be related to different peoples framework.. that is why buddha and other monks describe personal exp that can be cognized by others to help in path advancement
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
SteRo
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Re: grasping and non-grasping

Post by SteRo »

confusedlayman wrote: Mon Oct 05, 2020 5:50 am because personal exp can be related to different peoples framework.. that is why buddha and other monks describe personal exp that can be cognized by others to help in path advancement
This forum section isn't about personal experience but about theravada buddhism and therefore about the theravada doctrine.
Exhaling अ and inhaling धीः amounts to བྷྲཱུཾ་བི་ཤྭ་བི་ཤུད་དྷེ
pegembara
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Re: grasping and non-grasping

Post by pegembara »

Grasping means you still have 'skin in the game'. You are still a part of the story. You are invested in the story. Health, beauty, fame, honour, blame, romantic love, family etc.
"Just as when boys or girls are playing with little sand castles:[4] as long as they are not free from passion, desire, love, thirst, fever, & craving for those little sand castles, that's how long they have fun with those sand castles, enjoy them, treasure them, feel possessive of them. But when they become free from passion, desire, love, thirst, fever, & craving for those little sand castles, then they smash them, scatter them, demolish them with their hands or feet and make them unfit for play.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
auto
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Re: grasping and non-grasping

Post by auto »

https://suttacentral.net/sn12.32/en/sujato wrote:‘Grasping is the source of continued existence.’‘bhavo kho, āvuso, upādānanidāno upādānasamudayo upādānajātiko upādānappabhavo’ti.
so is continued existence a goal? i mean you need grasp so much that continued existence would come about?

and non-grasping is when you stop hating yourself?
https://suttacentral.net/sn12.32/en/sujato wrote:‘Because of an inner release with the ending of all grasping, I live mindfully so that defilements don’t defile me and I don’t look down on myself.’‘ajjhattaṃ vimokkhā khvāhaṃ, āvuso, sabbupādānakkhayā tathā sato viharāmi yathā sataṃ viharantaṃ āsavā nānussavanti, attānañca nāvajānāmī’ti.
there is some kind of effort in play,
https://suttacentral.net/an5.206/en/sujato wrote: Firstly, a mendicant isn’t free of greed, desire, fondness, thirst, passion, and craving for sensual pleasures.Idha, bhikkhave, bhikkhu kāmesu avītarāgo hoti avigatacchando avigatapemo avigatapipāso avigatapariḷāho avigatataṇho.
This being so, their mind doesn’t incline toward keenness, commitment, persistence, and striving.Yo so, bhikkhave, bhikkhu kāmesu avītarāgo hoti avigatacchando avigatapemo avigatapipāso avigatapariḷāho avigatataṇho, tassa cittaṃ na namati ātappāya anuyogāya sātaccāya padhānāya.
Craving is source of grasping to arise. That means without craving you have no idea how to grasp(keenness, commitment, persistence..). When mendicant is not free of craving for sensual pleasures then he won't notice craving, but is focused on feelings instead and thus can't use craving in order to grasp.
--
continued existence/bhava
notice here is term bhāvitaṃ, you develop it with grasping
https://suttacentral.net/an10.219/en/sujato wrote:They understand:So evaṃ pajānāti:
‘Formerly my mind was limited and undeveloped. Now it’s limitless and well developed. Whatever limited deeds I’ve done don’t remain or persist there.’‘pubbe kho me idaṃ cittaṃ parittaṃ ahosi abhāvitaṃ, etarahi pana me idaṃ cittaṃ appamāṇaṃ subhāvitaṃ. Yaṃ kho pana kiñci pamāṇakataṃ kammaṃ, na taṃ tatrāvasissati na taṃ tatrāvatiṭṭhatī’ti.
what i don't get it how it means rebirth is ended? does it mean when your mind is developed then you know about rebirth, it won't happen without notice?
form
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Re: grasping and non-grasping

Post by form »

Craving, conceiving, grasping, thirst, clinging, becoming, existence, volition, wish all denotes desire in varied intensity.
auto
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Re: grasping and non-grasping

Post by auto »

pegembara wrote: Mon Oct 05, 2020 7:45 am Grasping means you still have 'skin in the game'. You are still a part of the story. You are invested in the story. Health, beauty, fame, honour, blame, romantic love, family etc.
"Just as when boys or girls are playing with little sand castles:[4] as long as they are not free from passion, desire, love, thirst, fever, & craving for those little sand castles, that's how long they have fun with those sand castles, enjoy them, treasure them, feel possessive of them. But when they become free from passion, desire, love, thirst, fever, & craving for those little sand castles, then they smash them, scatter them, demolish them with their hands or feet and make them unfit for play.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
Satta belongs to upadana nidana.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn23/sn23.002.than.html wrote:"In the same way, Radha, you too should smash, scatter, & demolish form, and make it unfit for play. Practice for the ending of craving for form.
"Practice for the ending of craving for form" - it is jhana practice, at third craving ceases.(or not i don't know, just a guess)

One sees kamma resultant being,
https://suttacentral.net/sn12.31/en/sujato wrote:“Sir, one truly sees with right wisdom that this has come to be.“Bhūtamidanti, bhante, yathābhūtaṃ sammappaññāya passati.
what is that practice, prolly where you stop unskillful actions and stay secluded
Seeing this, one is practicing for disillusionment, dispassion, and cessation regarding what has come to be.Bhūtamidanti yathābhūtaṃ sammappaññāya disvā bhūtassa nibbidāya virāgāya nirodhāya paṭipanno hoti.
the moment you seclude the being disappears so you can find the fine line between kamma being arising and ceasing
One truly sees with right wisdom that it originated with that as fuel.Tadāhārasambhavanti yathābhūtaṃ sammappaññāya passati.
you take that side what causes the being to arise as object of practice and practice for to move to the other side without ceasing the being what has arisen
Seeing this, one is practicing for disillusionment, dispassion, and cessation regarding the fuel for its origination.Tadāhārasambhavanti yathābhūtaṃ sammappaññāya disvā āhārasambhavassa nibbidāya virāgāya nirodhāya paṭipanno hoti.
once you do then you see how the being what arise is liable to cease
One truly sees with right wisdom that when that fuel ceases, what has come to be is liable to cease.Tadāhāranirodhā yaṃ bhūtaṃ taṃ nirodhadhammanti yathābhūtaṃ sammappaññāya passati.
knowing how that being ceases you practice, follow that way.
Seeing this, one is practicing for disillusionment, dispassion, and cessation regarding what is liable to cease.Tadāhāranirodhā yaṃ bhūtaṃ taṃ nirodhadhammanti yathābhūtaṃ sammappaññāya disvā nirodhadhammassa nibbidāya virāgāya nirodhāya paṭipanno hoti.
I think its just a description for a way to be, a conduct what trainee has, like the 4 line poem suggests. It is step by step description for to understand what 'state' is talked about.
https://suttacentral.net/sn12.31/en/sujato wrote:Then the Buddha said to Venerable Sāriputta,Tatra kho bhagavā āyasmantaṃ sāriputtaṃ āmantesi:“Sāriputta, this was said in ‘The Way to the Beyond’, in ‘The Questions of Ajita’:“vuttamidaṃ, sāriputta, pārāyane ajitapañhe:

‘Those who have comprehended the teaching,‘Ye ca saṅkhātadhammāse,
and the many kinds of trainees here—ye ca sekkhā puthū idha;
dear sir, you are alert;Tesaṃ me nipako iriyaṃ,
when questioned, please tell me their conduct.’puṭṭho pabrūhi mārisā’ti.
auto
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Re: grasping and non-grasping

Post by auto »

Bundokji wrote: Mon Oct 05, 2020 12:13 am In the context of MN22, the water snake simile, "grasping" was not taught in contrast to non-grasping, but right-graspedness of the Dhammas is presented as:
Having studied the Dhamma, they ascertain the meaning of those Dhammas with their discernment. Having ascertained the meaning of those Dhammas with their discernment, they come to an agreement through pondering.
What should not be done was also mentioned:
They don't study the Dhamma either for attacking others or for defending themselves in debate.
The term there is duggahitā not upadana tho.
But it reminded me something and got new understanding regards to the atta,
https://suttacentral.net/sn22.79/en/sujato wrote: They understand: ‘Rebirth is ended, the spiritual journey has been completed, what had to be done has been done, there is no return to any state of existence.’‘Khīṇā jāti, vusitaṃ brahmacariyaṃ, kataṃ karaṇīyaṃ, nāparaṃ itthattāyā’ti pajānāti.

This is called a mendicant who neither gets rid of things nor accumulates them, but remains after getting rid of them. They neither give things up nor grasp them, but remain after giving them up. They neither discard things nor amass them, but remain after discarding them. They neither dissipate things nor get clouded by them, but remain after dissipating them.Ayaṃ vuccati, bhikkhave, bhikkhu nevācināti na apacināti, apacinitvā ṭhito; neva pajahati na upādiyati, pajahitvā ṭhito; neva visineti na ussineti, visinetvā ṭhito; neva vidhūpeti na sandhūpeti vidhūpetvā ṭhito
this is something no-selfers going to not like.
This line: "This is called a mendicant who neither gets rid of things nor accumulates them, but remains after getting rid of them. They neither give things up nor grasp them, but remain after giving them up."
implies that the atta doesn't disappear when giving up, discarding etc. Point is clinging is what produces atta, then you practice and after development you can give grasping up without losing the atta.
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Bundokji
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Re: grasping and non-grasping

Post by Bundokji »

auto wrote: Thu Oct 08, 2020 12:07 pm this is something no-selfers going to not like.
This line: "This is called a mendicant who neither gets rid of things nor accumulates them, but remains after getting rid of them. They neither give things up nor grasp them, but remain after giving them up."
implies that the atta doesn't disappear when giving up, discarding etc. Point is clinging is what produces atta, then you practice and after development you can give grasping up without losing the atta.
This makes sense. If i understand you correctly, conditions can produce new beings/universals/attas ad infinitum, but the urge to find its ultimate nature through defining it via another - more inclusive atta is what ceases. In other words, what ceases is very persistent habit, but not atta.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
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