Faith and Reliability

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
binocular
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Re: Faith and Reliability

Post by binocular »

SteRo wrote: Thu Oct 08, 2020 10:29 amIt is about investigating into the doctrine, not about reading the mind of persons.
What if the doctrine is inactionable?
Hic Rhodus, hic salta!
SteRo
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Re: Faith and Reliability

Post by SteRo »

binocular wrote: Thu Oct 08, 2020 10:41 am
SteRo wrote: Thu Oct 08, 2020 10:29 amIt is about investigating into the doctrine, not about reading the mind of persons.
What if the doctrine is inactionable?
You are actually asking: "What if one cannot enter the path of Theravada?" which is off the theme of this forum section.
Exhaling अ and inhaling धीः amounts to བྷྲཱུཾ་བི་ཤྭ་བི་ཤུད་དྷེ
form
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Re: Faith and Reliability

Post by form »

I know what is the meaning of faith (I prefer the word confidence though) in the dhamma. I would like to know how to define faith in the Buddha and sangha?
SteRo
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Re: Faith and Reliability

Post by SteRo »

form wrote: Fri Oct 09, 2020 2:40 am I know what is the meaning of faith (I prefer the word confidence though) in the dhamma. I would like to know how to define faith in the Buddha and sangha?
There are expressions of veneration of the Buddha as teacher of dhamma in the suttas. That appears to be more appropriate for faith than a definition.
As to sangha there are expressions in suttas as to with whom one should associate. You should investigate into the terms "the wise" and "person of integrity" to see that the meaning of "sangha" in terms of faith is the ariya sangha not the community of theravada worldlings.
Exhaling अ and inhaling धीः amounts to བྷྲཱུཾ་བི་ཤྭ་བི་ཤུད་དྷེ
Pulsar
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Re: Faith and Reliability

Post by Pulsar »

Regarding faith a comment found elsewhere, like lightening it struck me.
A comment from sutta central made by Karl Lew.
When I started rock climbing, I inferred that I could trust the rope–it’s physics, right?
Yet I had doubts. Eventually I got so frustrated with my doubts that I went to Yosemite, walked into the tunnel and out onto a cliff. I tied the rope to the balcony rail, said goodbye to my life and then I jumped off with hundreds of feet of air beneath me.
After that I directly trusted the rope. I also discovered that I could
ascend the rope back up to the railing.
  • Faith in the Buddha, the Teaching and the Sangha is exactly like that.
No matter how much we infer the validity of the Buddha, the Teaching and the Sangha, we still have to take that leap of faith.
PS Karl is one of the gentlest souls I find on Buddhist chat groups. Not that there is a soul, it is merely
a way of expressing.
With love :candle:
binocular
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Re: Faith and Reliability

Post by binocular »

Pulsar wrote: Thu Oct 22, 2020 11:27 am Regarding faith a comment found elsewhere, like lightening it struck me.
A comment from sutta central made by Karl Lew.
When I started rock climbing, I inferred that I could trust the rope–it’s physics, right?
Yet I had doubts. Eventually I got so frustrated with my doubts that I went to Yosemite, walked into the tunnel and out onto a cliff. I tied the rope to the balcony rail, said goodbye to my life and then I jumped off with hundreds of feet of air beneath me.
After that I directly trusted the rope. I also discovered that I could
ascend the rope back up to the railing.
  • Faith in the Buddha, the Teaching and the Sangha is exactly like that.
No matter how much we infer the validity of the Buddha, the Teaching and the Sangha, we still have to take that leap of faith.
There's just one catch: a climbing rope is not a bungee rope. Once a climbing rope is used in a fall, it becomes extended and is not safe for use anymore. If he were to use that climbing rope again for such a jump, or relied on it in a fall, it would possibly break.


And like with rock climbing ropes, a leap of faith only holds one fall as well. Take a leap of faith the second time, and you risk certain death; or, in spiritual/terms: failure.
So why take the first one to begin with?
Hic Rhodus, hic salta!
Pulsar
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Re: Faith and Reliability

Post by Pulsar »

Hi dear One! Binocular: so Karl's trick did not work for you, but it managed to show me how he understood the idea of faith. It is a bit like I trust you so much, I will take a huge risk for you Buddha!
I know you won't let me down.
Truthfully Dhamma worked for me like that, now I am a never returner to the old modes of thinking, like there is no rebirth, there is no karma, that things arise without causes, that we suffer due to others' stupidity, that life is a case of damn luck etc.
Fortunately I did not think of it like you did of Karl's jumping. I was not clever like you, and that stupidity of mine paid off in the long run.

I just jumped, and here I am, still in one piece.
Let me try another trick with you clever gal!
What do you think of It? pl tell me. Do I fail this time too?

Excerpt from MN 60 Incontrovertible teaching: wager argument, or safe bet:
'As for those who hold the doctrine and  view —
"There is no Nibbana"— I haven't seen that.
As for those others who hold this doctrine, and view —
"There is nibbaba— I haven't known that"
If I, not knowing, not seeing, were to take one side and declare, "Only this is true, anything else is worthless," that would not be fitting for me.

As for those good recluses & brahmans who hold the  doctrine, and view —
"There is no nibbana": If their statement is true, there's the safe-bet possibility that I might reappear among the perception-made devas of no form.
As for the ones who hold this doctrine, and view —
  • "There is nibbana": If their statement is true, it is possible that I might here and now attain Nibbana.
As for those who hold this doctrine, and view —
  • "There is no nibbana": This view of theirs borders on passion, borders on fettering, borders on relishing, borders on grasping, borders on clinging.
  • As for those good recluses & brahmans who hold this doctrine, and view — "There is nibbana": This view of theirs borders on non-passion, borders on non-fettering, borders on non-relishing, borders on non-grasping, borders on non-clinging.'
Reflecting thus, she practices for disenchantment toward becomings, for dispassion toward becomings, and for the cessation of becomings.
With love :candle:
binocular
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Re: Faith and Reliability

Post by binocular »

Pulsar wrote: Thu Oct 22, 2020 3:38 pm Hi dear One! Binocular: so Karl's trick did not work for you, but it managed to show me how he understood the idea of faith. It is a bit like I trust you so much, I will take a huge risk for you Buddha!
I know you won't let me down.
Truthfully Dhamma worked for me like that, now I am a never returner to the old modes of thinking, like there is no rebirth, there is no karma, that things arise without causes, that we suffer due to others' stupidity, that life is a case of damn luck etc.
Fortunately I did not think of it like you did of Karl's jumping. I was not clever like you, and that stupidity of mine paid off in the long run.

I just jumped, and here I am, still in one piece.
Let me try another trick with you clever gal!
What do you think of It? pl tell me. Do I fail this time too?

Excerpt from MN 60 Incontrovertible teaching: wager argument, or safe bet:
'As for those who hold the doctrine and  view —
"There is no Nibbana"— I haven't seen that.
As for those others who hold this doctrine, and view —
"There is nibbaba— I haven't known that"
If I, not knowing, not seeing, were to take one side and declare, "Only this is true, anything else is worthless," that would not be fitting for me.

As for those good recluses & brahmans who hold the  doctrine, and view —
"There is no nibbana": If their statement is true, there's the safe-bet possibility that I might reappear among the perception-made devas of no form.
As for the ones who hold this doctrine, and view —
  • "There is nibbana": If their statement is true, it is possible that I might here and now attain Nibbana.
As for those who hold this doctrine, and view —
  • "There is no nibbana": This view of theirs borders on passion, borders on fettering, borders on relishing, borders on grasping, borders on clinging.
  • As for those good recluses & brahmans who hold this doctrine, and view — "There is nibbana": This view of theirs borders on non-passion, borders on non-fettering, borders on non-relishing, borders on non-grasping, borders on non-clinging.'
Reflecting thus, she practices for disenchantment toward becomings, for dispassion toward becomings, and for the cessation of becomings.
With love :candle:
But that's not the order in which those things happened for you, is it?

You're telling it this way in retrospect. Perhaps in that time in the past when you were considering the leap, you even imagined this future where you would tell your narrative of your religious conversion this way. Because that would make it sound really nice.

Fortunately I did not think of it like you did of Karl's jumping. I was not clever like you, and that stupidity of mine paid off in the long run.
Oh, the sting!

A person appears to have a limited number of leaps to faith available to them. One can do it once, but if that one doesn't work out, one won't take the second one.
Hic Rhodus, hic salta!
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Dhammanando
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Re: Faith and Reliability

Post by Dhammanando »

binocular wrote: Thu Oct 22, 2020 4:11 pmA person appears to have a limited number of leaps to faith available to them. One can do it once, but if that one doesn't work out, one won't take the second one.
Try telling that to Mrs. Marmaduke Moore. Or the Vicar of Bray. Or any of these guys.
Svākkhātaṃ brahmacariyaṃ, sandiṭṭhikam’akālikaṃ,
Yattha amoghā pabbajjā, appamattassa sikkhato.


“The holy life is well proclaimed,
directly visible, immediate,
Where not in vain is the going forth
of one who trains heedfully.”
— Sela Sutta
Pulsar
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Re: Faith and Reliability

Post by Pulsar »

Binocular wrote
But that's not the order in which those things happened for you, is it?
It sorta did, in that order. 
The scripture is very organized, I am not, I cease to become at times, then again i become enchanted by becoming. Renunciation is not as easy as it sounds. But i don't give up. 
You write 
You're telling it this way in retrospect. Perhaps in that time in the past when you were considering the leap, you even imagined this future where you would tell your narrative of your religious conversion this way. Because that would make it sound really nice.
Meeting you, it is bit like meeting a person from a movie. Does the narrative sound nice? if so you made it possible, you are a nice person.
You write 
Oh the sting!
sting?, not the first time that someone said "I sting" A friend that i lost wrote on her FB page 'Being playful, reminds me of Pulsar.. where is Pulsar? I miss his/her icy stings" did she think i would read it?
Sting! i guess it is a birth defect, you have to forgive.
You continue
A person appears to have a limited number of leaps to faith available to them. One can do it once, but if that one doesn't work out, one won't take the second one.
How you underestimate yourself, i know you've got it in you, to take that leap of faith, over and over again. We all do it, over and over again. A miracle does not happen at the first leap.
With love  :candle:
binocular
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Re: Faith and Reliability

Post by binocular »

Pulsar wrote: Thu Oct 22, 2020 5:56 pmHow you underestimate yourself, i know you've got it in you, to take that leap of faith, over and over again. We all do it, over and over again. A miracle does not happen at the first leap.
I refuse to take a leap to faith.
Hic Rhodus, hic salta!
binocular
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Re: Faith and Reliability

Post by binocular »

Dhammanando wrote: Thu Oct 22, 2020 4:55 pmTry telling that to Mrs. Marmaduke Moore. Or the Vicar of Bray. Or any of these guys.
Clearly, you jest, sir.
Hic Rhodus, hic salta!
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cappuccino
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Re: Faith and Reliability

Post by cappuccino »

binocular wrote: Thu Oct 22, 2020 7:39 pm I refuse to take a leap to faith.
failure is easy


the easy way is the hard way


the harder way is the easier way
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cappuccino
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Re: Faith and Reliability

Post by cappuccino »

just think… a trillion more difficult births


just to have another day like today


when everything is possible
binocular
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Re: Faith and Reliability

Post by binocular »

cappuccino wrote: Thu Oct 22, 2020 7:58 pmwhen everything is possible
If you would actually believe that, you would have no objection to what I'm saying.
Hic Rhodus, hic salta!
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