An argument for ultimate reality from a Theravādin perspective.

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Ceisiwr
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An argument for ultimate reality from a Theravādin perspective.

Post by Ceisiwr »

An argument for the dhammas, via the ultimate analysis of the Abhidhamma of the Mahāvihāravasins:

Argument from Essence.
P1) The intrinsic function/essence (sabhāva) of citta is cognition.

P2) Apart from cognition/essence (sabhāva) there is no citta.

P2) A citta existing without function/essence (sabhāva) is impossible.

P3) There is cognition.

C1) Therefore, citta exists.

C2) Therefore, sabhāva = existence.

Thoughts?
Last edited by Ceisiwr on Fri Oct 09, 2020 5:06 am, edited 5 times in total.
Saññāvirattassa na santi ganthā,
Paññāvimuttassa na santi mohā;
Saññañca diṭṭhiñca ye aggahesuṃ,
Te ghaṭṭayantā vicaranti loke”ti.


“For one detached from perception, there exist no ties,
for one by wisdom freed, no delusions are there,
but those who have grasped perceptions and views,
they wander the world stirring up strife."


Māgaṇḍiya Sutta
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cappuccino
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Re: An argument for ultimate reality from a Theravādin perspective.

Post by cappuccino »

Ceisiwr wrote: Thoughts?
Reality is stressful, anxiety, difficult, suffering
Last edited by cappuccino on Fri Oct 09, 2020 4:33 am, edited 1 time in total.
SteRo
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Re: An argument for ultimate reality from a Theravādin perspective.

Post by SteRo »

“Monks, it’s not that I dispute with the world, but that the world disputes with me. A proponent of the Dhamma doesn’t dispute with anyone with regard to the world.1 Whatever is agreed upon by the wise as not existing in the world, of that I too say, ‘It doesn’t exist.’ Whatever is agreed upon by the wise as existing in the world, of that I too say, ‘It exists.’
https://www.dhammatalks.org/suttas/SN/SN22_94.html
Exhaling अ and inhaling धीः amounts to བྷྲཱུཾ་བི་ཤྭ་བི་ཤུད་དྷེ
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Ceisiwr
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Re: An argument for ultimate reality from a Theravādin perspective.

Post by Ceisiwr »

SteRo wrote: Fri Oct 09, 2020 4:27 am
“Monks, it’s not that I dispute with the world, but that the world disputes with me. A proponent of the Dhamma doesn’t dispute with anyone with regard to the world.1 Whatever is agreed upon by the wise as not existing in the world, of that I too say, ‘It doesn’t exist.’ Whatever is agreed upon by the wise as existing in the world, of that I too say, ‘It exists.’
https://www.dhammatalks.org/suttas/SN/SN22_94.html
Kind of disproves the Prajñāpāramitā sutras and Nāgārjuna.
Saññāvirattassa na santi ganthā,
Paññāvimuttassa na santi mohā;
Saññañca diṭṭhiñca ye aggahesuṃ,
Te ghaṭṭayantā vicaranti loke”ti.


“For one detached from perception, there exist no ties,
for one by wisdom freed, no delusions are there,
but those who have grasped perceptions and views,
they wander the world stirring up strife."


Māgaṇḍiya Sutta
SteRo
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Re: An argument for ultimate reality from a Theravādin perspective.

Post by SteRo »

Ceisiwr wrote: Fri Oct 09, 2020 4:29 am
SteRo wrote: Fri Oct 09, 2020 4:27 am
“Monks, it’s not that I dispute with the world, but that the world disputes with me. A proponent of the Dhamma doesn’t dispute with anyone with regard to the world.1 Whatever is agreed upon by the wise as not existing in the world, of that I too say, ‘It doesn’t exist.’ Whatever is agreed upon by the wise as existing in the world, of that I too say, ‘It exists.’
https://www.dhammatalks.org/suttas/SN/SN22_94.html
Kind of disproves the Prajñāpāramitā sutras and Nāgārjuna.
:shrug:
Exhaling अ and inhaling धीः amounts to བྷྲཱུཾ་བི་ཤྭ་བི་ཤུད་དྷེ
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Ceisiwr
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Re: An argument for ultimate reality from a Theravādin perspective.

Post by Ceisiwr »

SteRo wrote: Fri Oct 09, 2020 4:29 am
Ceisiwr wrote: Fri Oct 09, 2020 4:29 am
Kind of disproves the Prajñāpāramitā sutras and Nāgārjuna.
:shrug:
Care to add something substantial?
Saññāvirattassa na santi ganthā,
Paññāvimuttassa na santi mohā;
Saññañca diṭṭhiñca ye aggahesuṃ,
Te ghaṭṭayantā vicaranti loke”ti.


“For one detached from perception, there exist no ties,
for one by wisdom freed, no delusions are there,
but those who have grasped perceptions and views,
they wander the world stirring up strife."


Māgaṇḍiya Sutta
SteRo
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Re: An argument for ultimate reality from a Theravādin perspective.

Post by SteRo »

Ceisiwr wrote: Fri Oct 09, 2020 4:35 am
SteRo wrote: Fri Oct 09, 2020 4:29 am
Ceisiwr wrote: Fri Oct 09, 2020 4:29 am

Kind of disproves the Prajñāpāramitā sutras and Nāgārjuna.
:shrug:
Care to add something substantial?
Since this forum section is about theravada buddhism and thus theravada doctrine the sutta quote I have provided above appears to be substantial enough to me.
You may also look into abhidamma as to ultimate realities.
Exhaling अ and inhaling धीः amounts to བྷྲཱུཾ་བི་ཤྭ་བི་ཤུད་དྷེ
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cappuccino
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Re: An argument for ultimate reality from a Theravādin perspective.

Post by cappuccino »

Ceisiwr wrote: Care to add something substantial?
I will add this


we always think we're the cause of stress


rather than… reality is
Alino
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Re: An argument for ultimate reality from a Theravādin perspective.

Post by Alino »

Ceisiwr wrote: Fri Oct 09, 2020 4:19 am
Thoughts?
Views...
To complicate to understand what you mean, the Tuth is simple, that's why it's True.

Imagine there is 1 and 0.
1 is conditioned sankharas
0 is pure citta
Between them is con-sciousness
Even 0,00...001 will never touch 0, they have no contact, 0 is free from 1.

1 and 0 can not exist apart from each other, like two shores of the same river. But when the stream of the river is over, both shores disappear.
In the same way when 1 disappear there is no more 0 as number, as dhamma.

One need to abandon both shores.
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Re: An argument for ultimate reality from a Theravādin perspective.

Post by SteRo »

Actually I think that the kind of discussion intended by the OP is alien to theravada. At least I've never come across such reasonings in theravada sources so far. Seems to be inspired by later philosophies.
Exhaling अ and inhaling धीः amounts to བྷྲཱུཾ་བི་ཤྭ་བི་ཤུད་དྷེ
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Ceisiwr
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Re: An argument for ultimate reality from a Theravādin perspective.

Post by Ceisiwr »

Alino wrote: Fri Oct 09, 2020 4:52 am
Ceisiwr wrote: Fri Oct 09, 2020 4:19 am
Thoughts?
Views...
To complicate to understand what you mean, the Tuth is simple, that's why it's True.
Truth = indivisible, thus being directly known and necessary.
Last edited by Ceisiwr on Fri Oct 09, 2020 5:19 am, edited 2 times in total.
Saññāvirattassa na santi ganthā,
Paññāvimuttassa na santi mohā;
Saññañca diṭṭhiñca ye aggahesuṃ,
Te ghaṭṭayantā vicaranti loke”ti.


“For one detached from perception, there exist no ties,
for one by wisdom freed, no delusions are there,
but those who have grasped perceptions and views,
they wander the world stirring up strife."


Māgaṇḍiya Sutta
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Re: An argument for ultimate reality from a Theravādin perspective.

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,

The characteristics of any dhamma are that which has been imputed. When the commentaries say they uphold their own nature (or words to that effect), I believe their nature is sankata (fabricated), thus they uphold only their own fabricated imputation.

The reality that all dhammas are sankhata (aside from nibbana) is an argument against ultimate reality from a Theravādin perspective.

8-)

Metta,
Paul. :)
"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"It is natural that one who knows and sees things as they really are is disenchanted and dispassionate." (AN 10.2)

"Overcome the liar by truth." (Dhp 223)
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Lucas Oliveira
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Re: An argument for ultimate reality from a Theravādin perspective.

Post by Lucas Oliveira »

Alino wrote: Fri Oct 09, 2020 4:52 am
Ceisiwr wrote: Fri Oct 09, 2020 4:19 am
Thoughts?
Views...
To complicate to understand what you mean, the Tuth is simple, that's why it's True.

Imagine there is 1 and 0.
1 is conditioned sankharas
0 is pure citta
Between them is con-sciousness
Even 0,00...001 will never touch 0, they have no contact, 0 is free from 1.

1 and 0 can not exist apart from each other, like two shores of the same river. But when the stream of the river is over, both shores disappear.
In the same way when 1 disappear there is no more 0 as number, as dhamma.

One need to abandon both shores.
:goodpost:

:anjali:
I participate in this forum using Google Translator. http://translate.google.com.br

http://www.acessoaoinsight.net/
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Ceisiwr
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Re: An argument for ultimate reality from a Theravādin perspective.

Post by Ceisiwr »

retrofuturist wrote: Fri Oct 09, 2020 5:10 am Greetings,

The characteristics of any dhamma are that which has been imputed. When the commentaries say they uphold their own nature (or words to that effect), I believe their nature is sankata (fabricated), thus they uphold only their own fabricated imputation.

The reality that all dhammas are sankhata (aside from nibbana) is an argument against ultimate reality from a Theravādin perspective.

8-)

Metta,
Paul. :)
The intrinsic nature of citta is to cognise. This is not a construct. If it were a construct then something is constructing the construct of citta. What can this be but an infinite regress? It is either that or we have a fundamental reality called citta, on top of which we construct the concept of "citta".
Saññāvirattassa na santi ganthā,
Paññāvimuttassa na santi mohā;
Saññañca diṭṭhiñca ye aggahesuṃ,
Te ghaṭṭayantā vicaranti loke”ti.


“For one detached from perception, there exist no ties,
for one by wisdom freed, no delusions are there,
but those who have grasped perceptions and views,
they wander the world stirring up strife."


Māgaṇḍiya Sutta
SteRo
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Re: An argument for ultimate reality from a Theravādin perspective.

Post by SteRo »

Ācariya Anuruddha wrote:§2. The Fourfold Ultimate Reality (Catudhā Paramattha)
Tattha vutt’ābhidhammatthā
Catudhā paramatthato
Cittaṁ cetasikaṁ rūpaṁ
Nibbānam iti sabbathā.
The things contained in the Abhidhamma, spoken of therein, are altogether
fourfold from the standpoint of ultimate reality: consciousness (citta), mental factors
(cetasika), matter (rūpa), and Nibbāna.
No reasoning is provided. Also B. Bodhi in his commentary provides no reasoning. So "ultimate reality" seems to be dealt with as "a given" in abhidhamma.
Exhaling अ and inhaling धीः amounts to བྷྲཱུཾ་བི་ཤྭ་བི་ཤུད་དྷེ
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