what made buddha enlightened?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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cappuccino
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Re: what made buddha enlightened?

Post by cappuccino »

confusedlayman wrote: Sun Oct 11, 2020 4:08 pm he can understand dependent origination or else he cant be included in noble community
right
SteRo
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Re: what made buddha enlightened?

Post by SteRo »

confusedlayman wrote: Sun Oct 11, 2020 4:08 pm
cappuccino wrote: Sun Oct 11, 2020 2:51 pm
tamdrin wrote: Sun Oct 11, 2020 4:09 am


No, that can't be it because Pratekyabuddhas also understand dependent origination yet they are not buddhas.
A pratyekabuddha or paccekabuddha, literally "a lone buddha", "a buddha on their own", "a private buddha", or "a silent buddha", is one of three types of enlightened beings according to some schools of Buddhism. The other two types of enlightened beings are the arhat and the sammāsambuddha. Wikipedia
he can understand depenent origination or else he cant be included in noble community
That should be supported by doctrinal evidence in terms of definition of "noble community". Otherwise it is just opinion.

But let's come back to topic. :focus:

You have started this thread ... has your issue been clarified by the responses you have received?
Exhaling अ and inhaling धीः amounts to བྷྲཱུཾ་བི་ཤྭ་བི་ཤུད་དྷེ
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Mahabrahma
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Re: what made buddha enlightened?

Post by Mahabrahma »

When confusedlayman fully cent percent comes to His own Enlightenment, He will fully be able to say He understands. That can be at any given moment, past present, or future. :meditate:
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confusedlayman
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Re: what made buddha enlightened?

Post by confusedlayman »

SteRo wrote: Mon Oct 12, 2020 5:18 am
confusedlayman wrote: Sun Oct 11, 2020 4:08 pm
cappuccino wrote: Sun Oct 11, 2020 2:51 pm

A pratyekabuddha or paccekabuddha, literally "a lone buddha", "a buddha on their own", "a private buddha", or "a silent buddha", is one of three types of enlightened beings according to some schools of Buddhism. The other two types of enlightened beings are the arhat and the sammāsambuddha. Wikipedia
he can understand depenent origination or else he cant be included in noble community
That should be supported by doctrinal evidence in terms of definition of "noble community". Otherwise it is just opinion.

But let's come back to topic. :focus:

You have started this thread ... has your issue been clarified by the responses you have received?
ok i understand DO is needed
dont think
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Re: what made buddha enlightened?

Post by SteRo »

confusedlayman wrote: Mon Oct 12, 2020 6:13 am
SteRo wrote: Mon Oct 12, 2020 5:18 am
confusedlayman wrote: Sun Oct 11, 2020 4:08 pm

he can understand depenent origination or else he cant be included in noble community
That should be supported by doctrinal evidence in terms of definition of "noble community". Otherwise it is just opinion.

But let's come back to topic. :focus:

You have started this thread ... has your issue been clarified by the responses you have received?
ok i understand DO is needed
Don't know but if Gotama needed DO then the Tapussa sutta refers to the evidence he needed for himself to be able to genuinely "claim" his awakening.
Last edited by SteRo on Mon Oct 12, 2020 6:48 am, edited 3 times in total.
Exhaling अ and inhaling धीः amounts to བྷྲཱུཾ་བི་ཤྭ་བི་ཤུད་དྷེ
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Mahabrahma
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Re: what made buddha enlightened?

Post by Mahabrahma »

confusedlayman wrote: Mon Oct 12, 2020 6:13 am
SteRo wrote: Mon Oct 12, 2020 5:18 am
confusedlayman wrote: Sun Oct 11, 2020 4:08 pm

he can understand depenent origination or else he cant be included in noble community
That should be supported by doctrinal evidence in terms of definition of "noble community". Otherwise it is just opinion.

But let's come back to topic. :focus:

You have started this thread ... has your issue been clarified by the responses you have received?
ok i understand DO is needed
Sadhu! Sadhu! Sadhu! :smile:
SteRo
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Re: what made buddha enlightened?

Post by SteRo »

confusedlayman wrote: Mon Oct 12, 2020 6:13 am ...
So if you want the same awakening Gotama claimed then you must be able to "attain & emerge from these nine step-by-step dwelling-attainments in forward & backward order" based on the awakening you think you have attained.
Exhaling अ and inhaling धीः amounts to བྷྲཱུཾ་བི་ཤྭ་བི་ཤུད་དྷེ
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Re: what made buddha enlightened?

Post by SteRo »

Of course it is possible that Gotama took the "nine step-by-step dwelling-attainments" as self-evidence only because he started his spiritual carreer with teachers who were masters of meditative absorptions and who therefore conditioned Gotama this way. Who knows? Nevertheless to "attain & emerge from these nine step-by-step dwelling-attainments in forward & backward order" certainly is possible only when even the slightest clingings can be abandoned which seems possible only after awakening.
Exhaling अ and inhaling धीः amounts to བྷྲཱུཾ་བི་ཤྭ་བི་ཤུད་དྷེ
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Ceisiwr
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Re: what made buddha enlightened?

Post by Ceisiwr »

"Analysis and synthesis are praised by the wise,
liberation in the Sāsana comes from analysis and synthesis;
the purpose of the method of analysis and synthesis is the ultimate"


Nāmarūpapariccheda
“No one in the world, Dhotaka,
can I release from doubting.
But knowing the most excellent Dhamma,
you will cross over the flood."


Mettagūmāṇavapucchā
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Coëmgenu
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Re: what made buddha enlightened?

Post by Coëmgenu »

tamdrin wrote: Sun Oct 11, 2020 4:09 am
SarathW wrote: Sat Oct 10, 2020 10:56 pm When you fully understand (experienced) dependent origination you become the Buddha.
ie: Seen Anicca, Dukkha and Anatta.

No, that can't be it because Pratekyabuddhas also understand dependent origination yet they are not buddhas.
How do you figure pratyekabuddhas are not Buddhas? Are Arhats also not Buddhas according to you?
The thus come thus gone,
who has neither came nor went,
enthroned on men’s breath,

like the still turtle,
withdraws six appendages
and is clothed in light --

illuminating
the unilluminated
with three shining cures.
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Re: what made buddha enlightened?

Post by SteRo »

Coëmgenu wrote: Mon Oct 12, 2020 4:15 pm
tamdrin wrote: Sun Oct 11, 2020 4:09 am
SarathW wrote: Sat Oct 10, 2020 10:56 pm When you fully understand (experienced) dependent origination you become the Buddha.
ie: Seen Anicca, Dukkha and Anatta.

No, that can't be it because Pratekyabuddhas also understand dependent origination yet they are not buddhas.
How do you figure pratyekabuddhas are not Buddhas? Are Arhats also not Buddhas according to you?
The Arahant

"A monk who is a Worthy One, devoid of mental fermentations — who has attained completion, finished the task, laid down the burden, attained the true goal, destroyed the fetters of becoming, and is released through right knowledge — directly knows earth as earth. Directly knowing earth as earth, he does not conceive things about earth, does not conceive things in earth, does not conceive things coming out of earth, does not conceive earth as 'mine,' does not delight in earth. Why is that? Because he has comprehended it, I tell you.
...
The Tathagata

"The Tathagata — a worthy one, rightly self-awakened — directly knows earth as earth. Directly knowing earth as earth, he does not conceive things about earth, does not conceive things in earth, does not conceive things coming out of earth, does not conceive earth as 'mine,' does not delight in earth. Why is that? Because the Tathagata has comprehended it to the end, I tell you.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

Obviously pacceka-buddhas are buddhas by name but they are not sammāsam-buddhas. And arahants are not even buddhas by name which does not downplay their liberation at all.

Might be a good idea to just stick to the doctrine, right?
Exhaling अ and inhaling धीः amounts to བྷྲཱུཾ་བི་ཤྭ་བི་ཤུད་དྷེ
2600htz
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Re: what made buddha enlightened?

Post by 2600htz »

Hi:

Its a weird sutta, because Siddharta attained Buddhahood going to the fourth jhana and then experiencing tivijja (3 supreme knowledges),
he didnt go to "arupa jhanas", at least at the night of his awakening. Also he did not experience this jhanas in forward and reverse order, thats something he did for his parinibbana.

So to answer what made him attain enlightment, attain 1,2,3 and then at the 4 jhana developing supernormal powers (seeing his former abodes, attaining the divine eye to see beings being reborn according to kamma, experiencing nirodha-samāpatti, and then when coming out of cessation of perception and feeling seeing dependent origination.

Again, AN 9.41 doesn´t seem to agree with other suttas, unless im reading bad something.

Regards.
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Re: what made buddha enlightened?

Post by Dhammanando »

SteRo wrote: Mon Oct 12, 2020 4:40 pm And arahants are not even buddhas by name which does not downplay their liberation at all.
In the commentaries arahants are sometimes called sāvaka-buddhas.

__Buddhā_ti catusaccasambodhena buddhā; te ca pana sāvakabuddhā, paccekabuddhā, sammāsambuddhāti tividhā.

"Awakened Ones" means those awakened by awakening to the four truths. And they are threefold: awakened disciples, privately awakened ones, perfectly awakened ones.
(Ud-a 58)
Svākkhātaṃ brahmacariyaṃ, sandiṭṭhikam’akālikaṃ,
Yattha amoghā pabbajjā, appamattassa sikkhato.


“The holy life is well proclaimed,
directly visible, immediate,
Where not in vain is the going forth
of one who trains heedfully.”
— Sela Sutta
SarathW
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Re: what made buddha enlightened?

Post by SarathW »

Dhammanando wrote: Tue Oct 13, 2020 1:50 am
SteRo wrote: Mon Oct 12, 2020 4:40 pm And arahants are not even buddhas by name which does not downplay their liberation at all.
In the commentaries arahants are sometimes called sāvaka-buddhas.

__Buddhā_ti catusaccasambodhena buddhā; te ca pana sāvakabuddhā, paccekabuddhā, sammāsambuddhāti tividhā.

"Awakened Ones" means those awakened by awakening to the four truths. And they are threefold: awakened disciples, privately awakened ones, perfectly awakened ones.
(Ud-a 58)
I have some ideas about those three types, but could you tell us the difference of those three.
Specially what is the meaning of perfectly awakened?
Is it possible to partially awakened or imperfectly awakened?
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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Dhammanando
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Re: what made buddha enlightened?

Post by Dhammanando »

SarathW wrote: Tue Oct 13, 2020 3:20 amI have some ideas about those three types, but could you tell us the difference of those three.
Specially what is the meaning of perfectly awakened?
Is it possible to partially awakened or imperfectly awakened?
Sammāsambuddhas extinguish the āsavas by their own unguided efforts, establish a sāsanā and found a saṅgha to preserve it.

Paccekabuddhas extinguish the āsavas by their own unguided efforts but don't establish a sāsanā or found a saṅgha.

Sāvakabuddhas extinguish the āsavas by efforts made under the guidance of a sammāsambuddha or one of his contemporary or later ariyan disciples.

"Perfectly" or "rightly" are the commonest translations of the sammā part of sammāsambuddha. For the meaning see the account of buddhānussati in the Visuddhimagga.
Svākkhātaṃ brahmacariyaṃ, sandiṭṭhikam’akālikaṃ,
Yattha amoghā pabbajjā, appamattassa sikkhato.


“The holy life is well proclaimed,
directly visible, immediate,
Where not in vain is the going forth
of one who trains heedfully.”
— Sela Sutta
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