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what made buddha enlightened?
Posted: Sat Oct 10, 2020 5:44 pm
by confusedlayman
41. With the Householder Tapussa sutta
he said entering 9 stages and seeing them change both in forward and reverse direction , he enlightened and announced
---- In his enlightment sutta, he said dependent origination front and reverse made him enlightened (or directing mind what is stress, its origination etc)
so what method he used? also did he learn each jhana one by one or he entered first jhana and went full forward without emerging from it in between?
Re: what made buddha enlightened?
Posted: Sat Oct 10, 2020 5:53 pm
by cappuccino
dependent arising must be understood
that's the requirement
Re: what made buddha enlightened?
Posted: Sat Oct 10, 2020 6:30 pm
by Lucas Oliveira
Re: what made buddha enlightened?
Posted: Sat Oct 10, 2020 10:56 pm
by SarathW
When you fully understand (experienced) dependent origination you become the Buddha.
ie: Seen Anicca, Dukkha and Anatta.
Re: what made buddha enlightened?
Posted: Sat Oct 10, 2020 11:15 pm
by cappuccino
SarathW wrote: ↑Sat Oct 10, 2020 10:56 pm
ie: Seen Anicca, Dukkha and Anatta.
you just described the three marks of existence
whereas dependent origination is more difficult, more advanced
Re: what made buddha enlightened?
Posted: Sun Oct 11, 2020 4:09 am
by tamdrin
SarathW wrote: ↑Sat Oct 10, 2020 10:56 pm
When you fully understand (experienced) dependent origination you become the Buddha.
ie: Seen Anicca, Dukkha and Anatta.
No, that can't be it because Pratekyabuddhas also understand dependent origination yet they are not buddhas.
Re: what made buddha enlightened?
Posted: Sun Oct 11, 2020 4:16 am
by SarathW
tamdrin wrote: ↑Sun Oct 11, 2020 4:09 am
SarathW wrote: ↑Sat Oct 10, 2020 10:56 pm
When you fully understand (experienced) dependent origination you become the Buddha.
ie: Seen Anicca, Dukkha and Anatta.
No, that can't be it because Pratekyabuddhas also understand dependent origination yet they are not buddhas.
Agre.
But they can't articulate like Buddha because they don't fully understand it.
Re: what made buddha enlightened?
Posted: Sun Oct 11, 2020 4:43 am
by SteRo
confusedlayman wrote: ↑Sat Oct 10, 2020 5:44 pm
41. With the Householder Tapussa sutta
he said entering 9 stages and seeing them change both in forward and reverse direction , he enlightened and announced
---- In his enlightment sutta, he said dependent origination front and reverse made him enlightened (or directing mind what is stress, its origination etc)
so what method he used? also did he learn each jhana one by one or he entered first jhana and went full forward without emerging from it in between?
There is no contradiction between full understanding of "dependent origination" and the Tapussa sutta. Why? Because attaining & emerging "from these nine step-by-step dwelling-attainments in forward & backward order" is
an application of or
is based on the full understanding of "dependent origination".
It reads
"Ananda, as long as I had not attained & emerged from these nine step-by-step dwelling-attainments in forward & backward order in this way, I did not claim to have directly awakened to the right self-awakening
So the attaining & emerging "from these nine step-by-step dwelling-attainments in forward & backward order" has been a matter of evidence for him based on which he claimed awakening. If he would not have succeeded in this attaining & emerging then he actually would not have fully understood "dependent origination", where full understanding is 'full understanding as abandonment' (of ignorance).
Notice the insight that precedes the entering of each following step in the Tapussa sutta.
Re: what made buddha enlightened?
Posted: Sun Oct 11, 2020 4:57 am
by SteRo
tamdrin wrote: ↑Sun Oct 11, 2020 4:09 am
SarathW wrote: ↑Sat Oct 10, 2020 10:56 pm
When you fully understand (experienced) dependent origination you become the Buddha.
ie: Seen Anicca, Dukkha and Anatta.
No, that can't be it because Pratekyabuddhas also understand dependent origination yet they are not buddhas.
Can you provide doctrinal evidence that "Pratekyabuddhas also understand dependent origination"? Where is this mentioned in the Tipitaka? I know that the Mahayanists assert this but is it theravada doctrine?
Re: what made buddha enlightened?
Posted: Sun Oct 11, 2020 5:28 am
by Mahabrahma
I believe it was infinite Metta for all beings that He could explain in the most advanced yet simple ways possible, leading the way to full liberation from Samsara. That was His initial and accomplished goal, His second was saving all others and converting them to the Buddha Way.
Re: what made buddha enlightened?
Posted: Sun Oct 11, 2020 6:50 am
by Dhammanando
SteRo wrote: ↑Sun Oct 11, 2020 4:57 amCan you provide doctrinal evidence that "Pratekyabuddhas also understand dependent origination"? Where is this mentioned in the Tipitaka?
It's explicitly stated in the Niddesa to the Khaggavisāṇa (Rhinoceros Horn) Sutta.
How is a paccekasambuddha alone by having awakened to the unsurpassed pacceka enlightenment? “Enlightenment” is the knowledge in the four paths, the faculty of wisdom, the power of wisdom, the enlightenment factor of discrimination of qualities, investigation, insight, right view. By that knowledge of enlightenment, a paccekasambuddha awakens to the truth that “all conditioned things are impermanent, all conditioned things are suffering, all phenomena are non-self.”
He awakens to: “With ignorance as condition, volitional activities [come to be] . . . with the cessation of birth, there is cessation of old age and death.”
He awakens to: “This is suffering, this is its origin, this is its cessation, this is the way leading to the cessation of suffering. These are the influxes, this is their origin, this is their cessation, this is the way leading to their cessation.”
He awakens to: “These things should be directly known, these should be fully understood, these should be abandoned, these should be developed, these should be realized.”
He awakens to the origin and passing away, the gratification, danger, and escape in regard to the six bases for contact, the five aggregates subject to clinging, and the four great elements.
He awakens to: “Whatever is subject to origination is all subject to cessation.”
Though even it hadn't been explicitly stated it could have been derived inferentially from general sutta teachings about the understanding of dependent arising being a prerequisite for any kind of awakening.
Re: what made buddha enlightened?
Posted: Sun Oct 11, 2020 7:23 am
by SteRo
Dhammanando wrote: ↑Sun Oct 11, 2020 6:50 am
SteRo wrote: ↑Sun Oct 11, 2020 4:57 amCan you provide doctrinal evidence that "Pratekyabuddhas also understand dependent origination"? Where is this mentioned in the Tipitaka?
It's explicitly stated in the Niddesa to the Khaggavisāṇa (Rhinoceros Horn) Sutta.
How is a paccekasambuddha alone by having awakened to the unsurpassed pacceka enlightenment? “Enlightenment” is the knowledge in the four paths, the faculty of wisdom, the power of wisdom, the enlightenment factor of discrimination of qualities, investigation, insight, right view. By that knowledge of enlightenment, a paccekasambuddha awakens to the truth that “all conditioned things are impermanent, all conditioned things are suffering, all phenomena are non-self.”
He awakens to: “With ignorance as condition, volitional activities [come to be] . . . with the cessation of birth, there is cessation of old age and death.”
He awakens to: “This is suffering, this is its origin, this is its cessation, this is the way leading to the cessation of suffering. These are the influxes, this is their origin, this is their cessation, this is the way leading to their cessation.”
He awakens to: “These things should be directly known, these should be fully understood, these should be abandoned, these should be developed, these should be realized.”
He awakens to the origin and passing away, the gratification, danger, and escape in regard to the six bases for contact, the five aggregates subject to clinging, and the four great elements.
He awakens to: “Whatever is subject to origination is all subject to cessation.”
So "Niddesa to the Khaggavisāṇa (Rhinoceros Horn)" Sutta means a kind of commentary on the Khaggavisāṇa sutta, right? Because the Khaggavisāṇa sutta does not have the wording of your quote. Nevermind, it seems to belong to the original Tipitaka, so that's fine.
Dhammanando wrote: ↑Sun Oct 11, 2020 6:50 am
Though even it hadn't been explicitly stated it could have been derived inferentially from general sutta teachings about the understanding of dependent arising being a prerequisite for any kind of awakening.
I would refrain to rely on own inference when it comes to the doctrine because own inference remains own inference if not explicitly stated in the doctrine.
Why should one infer the applicability of a Buddha's teaching to a paccekabuddha at all when a paccekabuddha is said to appear only in a period of absence of buddhas and buddhas't teachings?
Oh wait ... I could not provide doctrional evidence for "a paccekabuddha appearing only in a period of absence of buddhas and buddhas't teaching" and stating this is just an instance of hearsay on my side. It's funny how one can be mislead to make statements without knowing whether what one states actually is part of the doctrine.
Re: what made buddha enlightened?
Posted: Sun Oct 11, 2020 7:31 am
by SarathW
Even Pacceka Buddha has to realise the Four Noble Truths.
Dependent Origination is a subset of Four Noble Truths.
You can realise Four Noble Truths without realising it is Four Noble Truths.
Can other religions contain Noble Eightfold Path.
https://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=38202
Re: what made buddha enlightened?
Posted: Sun Oct 11, 2020 2:51 pm
by cappuccino
tamdrin wrote: ↑Sun Oct 11, 2020 4:09 am
SarathW wrote: ↑Sat Oct 10, 2020 10:56 pm
When you fully understand (experienced) dependent origination you become the Buddha.
No, that can't be it because Pratekyabuddhas also understand dependent origination yet they are not buddhas.
A pratyekabuddha or paccekabuddha, literally "a lone buddha", "a buddha on their own", "a private buddha", or "a silent buddha", is one of three types of enlightened beings according to some schools of Buddhism. The other two types of enlightened beings are the arhat and the sammāsambuddha. Wikipedia
Re: what made buddha enlightened?
Posted: Sun Oct 11, 2020 4:08 pm
by confusedlayman
cappuccino wrote: ↑Sun Oct 11, 2020 2:51 pm
tamdrin wrote: ↑Sun Oct 11, 2020 4:09 am
SarathW wrote: ↑Sat Oct 10, 2020 10:56 pm
When you fully understand (experienced) dependent origination you become the Buddha.
No, that can't be it because Pratekyabuddhas also understand dependent origination yet they are not buddhas.
A pratyekabuddha or paccekabuddha, literally "a lone buddha", "a buddha on their own", "a private buddha", or "a silent buddha", is one of three types of enlightened beings according to some schools of Buddhism. The other two types of enlightened beings are the arhat and the sammāsambuddha. Wikipedia
he can understand depenent origination or else he cant be included in noble community
