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Re: Negative thoughts to positive

Posted: Fri Oct 16, 2020 3:56 pm
by binocular
Sam Vara wrote: Tue Oct 13, 2020 4:31 pmBut for those who hate their job, that's how they turn those feelings into something better.
The suttas quoted are giving advice for monks, within the scope of a monk's activities.

If "changing negative thoughts into positive thoughts" would in and of itself be a good thing, irrespective of the content of the thoughts, then the practice of "changing thoughts" this way would include going from, for example, "I hate being a prostitute" to "I love being a prostitute", or "I hate it when I get beaten up" to "I love it when I get beaten up". But that's not how to do it, is it. Rather, it's about looking at things within a very specific scope, or from a very specific perspective, and not simply working to convince oneself of the opposite that one is currently thinking.

Re: Negative thoughts to positive

Posted: Fri Oct 16, 2020 4:12 pm
by Sam Vara
binocular wrote: Fri Oct 16, 2020 3:56 pm
Sam Vara wrote: Tue Oct 13, 2020 4:31 pmBut for those who hate their job, that's how they turn those feelings into something better.
The suttas quoted are giving advice for monks, within the scope of a monk's activities.
They contain excellent advice for all people, irrespective of whether they are monks or not.
If "changing negative thoughts into positive thoughts" would in and of itself be a good thing, irrespective of the content of the thoughts
I've always thought that it was about changing the content of thoughts, so I don't have a problem with it.

Re: Negative thoughts to positive

Posted: Fri Oct 16, 2020 4:17 pm
by befriend
I did this yesterday changed my negative thoughts to positive and it is a boon to my well being

Re: Negative thoughts to positive

Posted: Fri Oct 16, 2020 5:54 pm
by befriend
I think it's a part of right effort

Re: Negative thoughts to positive

Posted: Fri Oct 16, 2020 6:26 pm
by No_Mind
Sam Vara wrote: Tue Oct 13, 2020 4:19 pm
binocular wrote: Tue Oct 13, 2020 4:14 pm
Sam Vara wrote: Tue Oct 13, 2020 3:11 pm

See Nicolas' post, and the link I posted. There is also of course the Brahma-viharas.
But those don't describe "changing one's negative thoughts into positive thoughts", they don't describe changing the proverbial water into the proverbial wine, or orange juice, for that matter.

An example of "changing one's negative thoughts into positive thoughts" would be to go from "I hate my job" to "I love my job".
They have that result.
Is that not bordering on self hypnosis?

:namaste:

Re: Negative thoughts to positive

Posted: Fri Oct 16, 2020 6:37 pm
by Aloka
No_Mind wrote: Fri Oct 16, 2020 6:26 pm
Is that not bordering on self hypnosis?
A previous topic....

.

Re: Negative thoughts to positive

Posted: Fri Oct 16, 2020 6:44 pm
by cappuccino
No_Mind wrote: Fri Oct 16, 2020 6:26 pm Is that not bordering on self-hypnosis?
traffic signs don't hypnotize you


they direct you, guide you, protect you


for everyone's benefit

Re: Negative thoughts to positive

Posted: Fri Oct 16, 2020 6:48 pm
by cappuccino
stop here, turn around here, yield

Re: Negative thoughts to positive

Posted: Fri Oct 16, 2020 7:46 pm
by Sam Vara
No_Mind wrote: Fri Oct 16, 2020 6:26 pm
Is that not bordering on self hypnosis?

:namaste:
I'm not sure what self-hypnosis would amount to, but this would mean generating positive attitudes so that things did not appear as afflictive.

Re: Negative thoughts to positive

Posted: Sat Oct 17, 2020 11:48 am
by No_Mind
Sam Vara wrote: Fri Oct 16, 2020 7:46 pm
No_Mind wrote: Fri Oct 16, 2020 6:26 pm
Is that not bordering on self hypnosis?

:namaste:
I'm not sure what self-hypnosis would amount to, but this would mean generating positive attitudes so that things did not appear as afflictive.
Telling oneself that something is bearable when it is not and believing what one is telling oneself is hypnosis.

:namaste:

Re: Negative thoughts to positive

Posted: Sat Oct 17, 2020 12:22 pm
by SteRo
No_Mind wrote: Fri Oct 16, 2020 6:26 pm Is that not bordering on self hypnosis?
Auto-suggestion? Yes, it's a method used in psychotherapy and Mahayana. But it is usually based on a line of reasoning which makes the desired thought appear to be real or true.

From the perspective of vipassana doctrine however it is coursing in formations (thoughts) which are impermanent and therefore miserable and which are not self.

Re: Negative thoughts to positive

Posted: Sat Oct 17, 2020 12:47 pm
by No_Mind
SteRo wrote: Sat Oct 17, 2020 12:22 pm
No_Mind wrote: Fri Oct 16, 2020 6:26 pm Is that not bordering on self hypnosis?
Auto-suggestion? Yes, it's a method used in psychotherapy and Mahayana. But it is usually based on a line of reasoning which makes the desired thought appear to be real or true.

From the perspective of vipassana doctrine however it is coursing in formations (thoughts) which are impermanent and therefore miserable and which are not self.
Besides psychotherapy and Mahayana it is also used by positive thinkers.

The nutshell is this (I have read few thousand pages and watched many hours of video) -

If you are feeling miserable, depressed, down, sad, blue ...

Make a humongous effort to suspend your state of mind temporarily (at least 10 days but possibly 30 days).

Be positive .. even if your boss shouts, your neighbor's dog keeps yapping through the night, your car gets stolen .. do not under any circumstances feel negative. If you do end up feeling negative .. you start again from Day #1.

Also try reaching into cookie jar of memories .. your boss shouts .. go into a temporary state and relive the last time you were on vacation (or similar).

By around month 2-4 you would start observing things begin to change. You would find more opportunities, people would like you more, so on ..

One theory being .. (sort of quantum woo but not quite) .. if you are vibrating low (or heavy) bad things keep happening .. therefore vibrate high and be in a constant joyous state (sort of permanently being in first jhana) and over a year or three your life, health, wealth would get better.

Oddly enough this school of thinking has quite a bit of sila attached to it.

No drinking, smoking, over eating, indulging of any kind. Being quiet, meditative, hard working, always going to bed early, waking up early, exercising daily, not indulging in lot of sex, having a daily prayer/meditative practice for 20-40 minutes, practice gratitude .. so on.

:namaste:

Re: Negative thoughts to positive

Posted: Sat Oct 17, 2020 1:02 pm
by SteRo
No_Mind wrote: Sat Oct 17, 2020 12:47 pm
SteRo wrote: Sat Oct 17, 2020 12:22 pm
No_Mind wrote: Fri Oct 16, 2020 6:26 pm Is that not bordering on self hypnosis?
Auto-suggestion? Yes, it's a method used in psychotherapy and Mahayana. But it is usually based on a line of reasoning which makes the desired thought appear to be real or true.

From the perspective of vipassana doctrine however it is coursing in formations (thoughts) which are impermanent and therefore miserable and which are not self.
Besides psychotherapy and Mahayana it is also used by positive thinkers.

The nutshell is this (I have read few thousand pages and watched too many hours of video about it) -

If you are feeling miserable, depressed, down, sad, blue ...

Make a humongous effort to suspend your state of mind temporarily (at least 10 days but possibly 30 days).

Be positive .. even if your boss shouts, your neighbors dog keeps yapping through the night, your car gets stolen .. do not under any circumstances feel negative. If you do end up feeling negative .. you start again from Day #1.

Also try reaching into cookie jar of memories .. your boss shouts .. go into a temporary state and relive the last time you were on vacation (or similar)

By around month 2-4 you would start observing things begin to change. You would find more opportunities, people would like you more, so on ..

One theory being .. (sort of quantum woo but not quite) .. if you are vibrating low (or heavy) bad things keep happening .. therefore vibrate high and be in a constant joyous state (sort of permanently being in first jhana) and over a year or three your life, health, wealth would get better.

Oddly enough this school of thinking has quite a bit of sila attached to it.

No drinking, smoking, over eating, indulging of any kind. Being quiet, meditative, hard working, always going to bed early, waking up early, exercising daily, not indulging in lot of sex, having a daily prayer/meditative practice for 20-40 minutes, practice gratitude .. so on.

:namaste:
I don't say that one cannot get through life until death using this method of auto-suggestion supported by equally positively expressed theories. Some certainly are masters of positive thinking and are enjoying life more than others who are far from mastery. So it again turns out to be a question of: why some are of this kind and others are of other kind ... ?

Nevertheless from the perspective of vipassana doctrine it is coursing in formations (thoughts) which are impermanent and therefore miserable and which are not self.

So? Positive thinking isn't everybody's cup of tea as is vipassana, i.e. seriously following the doctrine.

Re: Negative thoughts to positive

Posted: Sat Oct 17, 2020 4:57 pm
by Sam Vara
No_Mind wrote: Sat Oct 17, 2020 11:48 am
Sam Vara wrote: Fri Oct 16, 2020 7:46 pm
No_Mind wrote: Fri Oct 16, 2020 6:26 pm
Is that not bordering on self hypnosis?

:namaste:
I'm not sure what self-hypnosis would amount to, but this would mean generating positive attitudes so that things did not appear as afflictive.
Telling oneself that something is bearable when it is not and believing what one is telling oneself is hypnosis.

:namaste:
No, that's not metta-bhavana, and I wouldn't advise doing it. The idea is to generate genuine feelings of goodwill, which then makes things bearable when they were hitherto afflictive.

Re: Negative thoughts to positive

Posted: Sun Oct 18, 2020 6:48 am
by binocular
Sam Vara wrote: Fri Oct 16, 2020 4:12 pmThey contain excellent advice for all people, irrespective of whether they are monks or not.
My point is that some advice is applicable only in the sphere of being a monastic.