Negative thoughts to positive

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binocular
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Re: Negative thoughts to positive

Post by binocular »

Sam Vara wrote: Fri Oct 16, 2020 7:46 pm
No_Mind wrote: Fri Oct 16, 2020 6:26 pm Is that not bordering on self hypnosis?
I'm not sure what self-hypnosis would amount to, but this would mean generating positive attitudes so that things did not appear as afflictive.
When "changing one's negative thoughts into positive ones", how does one escape the feeling that one is just fooling oneself?
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Sam Vara
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Re: Negative thoughts to positive

Post by Sam Vara »

binocular wrote: Sun Oct 18, 2020 6:48 am
Sam Vara wrote: Fri Oct 16, 2020 4:12 pmThey contain excellent advice for all people, irrespective of whether they are monks or not.
My point is that some advice is applicable only in the sphere of being a monastic.
Sure. If you find some, don't incorporate it into your practice.
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Re: Negative thoughts to positive

Post by binocular »

cappuccino wrote: Fri Oct 16, 2020 6:44 pmtraffic signs don't hypnotize you
they direct you, guide you, protect you
for everyone's benefit
Provided you trust them. Provided you trust that they were placed there by the authorities who knew what they were doing and who truly have the benefit of all in mind. Provided that you have good reason to believe that following traffic signs isn't going to get you into some kind of trouble.

Your analogy is a poor and a loaded one, because most people don't respect traffic signs and traffic laws, and will even try to run you off the road if you do.
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Sam Vara
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Re: Negative thoughts to positive

Post by Sam Vara »

binocular wrote: Sun Oct 18, 2020 6:50 am
Sam Vara wrote: Fri Oct 16, 2020 7:46 pm
No_Mind wrote: Fri Oct 16, 2020 6:26 pm Is that not bordering on self hypnosis?
I'm not sure what self-hypnosis would amount to, but this would mean generating positive attitudes so that things did not appear as afflictive.
When "changing one's negative thoughts into positive ones", how does one escape the feeling that one is just fooling oneself?
Essentially, by not fooling oneself. Could you give an example of how you could feel that you were just fooling yourself?
binocular
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Re: Negative thoughts to positive

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Sam Vara wrote: Sun Oct 18, 2020 7:07 amEssentially, by not fooling oneself. Could you give an example of how you could feel that you were just fooling yourself?
"Two men were imprisoned in a prison cell. One was looking out the window at the beautiful moon and felt serene, the other was staring at the wall in the darkness, bemoaning his fate."

When one is in a situation where one could take different perspectives on it, IOW, choose what to believe about it, some people experience the negative way as the default, as the truth, and the positive way as some kind of deliberate delusion, as lying to oneself, as fooling oneself.

As if, "When you're in prison, you're supposed to stare at the wall and bemoan your fate, and anything else would be fooling yourself".
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Sam Vara
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Re: Negative thoughts to positive

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binocular wrote: Sun Oct 18, 2020 7:41 am
Sam Vara wrote: Sun Oct 18, 2020 7:07 amEssentially, by not fooling oneself. Could you give an example of how you could feel that you were just fooling yourself?
"Two men were imprisoned in a prison cell. One was looking out the window at the beautiful moon and felt serene, the other was staring at the wall in the darkness, bemoaning his fate."

When one is in a situation where one could take different perspectives on it, IOW, choose what to believe about it, some people experience the negative way as the default, as the truth, and the positive way as some kind of deliberate delusion, as lying to oneself, as fooling oneself.

As if, "When you're in prison, you're supposed to stare at the wall and bemoan your fate, and anything else would be fooling yourself".
In that particular case, the person who had the belief expressed in the final quotes is advised to examine it with a view to abandoning or eradicating it. Clearly, setting that as a condition is the problem.
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Re: Negative thoughts to positive

Post by binocular »

Sam Vara wrote: Sun Oct 18, 2020 8:11 amIn that particular case, the person who had the belief expressed in the final quotes is advised to examine it with a view to abandoning or eradicating it.

Clearly, setting that as a condition is the problem.
What do you mean by the underlined part?


And yes, people are advised as you say, yet this is precisely what they who have an outlook as described above ("when in prison, you're supposed to be miserable") cannot do, they cannot follow that advice, because they understand it as an exhortation to fool themselves.
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Re: Negative thoughts to positive

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binocular wrote: Sun Oct 18, 2020 8:26 am
Sam Vara wrote: Sun Oct 18, 2020 8:11 amIn that particular case, the person who had the belief expressed in the final quotes is advised to examine it with a view to abandoning or eradicating it.

Clearly, setting that as a condition is the problem.
What do you mean by the underlined part?
I mean that a hypothetical situation in which it is specified that a person "experiences the negative way as the default, the truth" etc., creates a problem for that hypothetical person. If there is a premise that a person can't understand or do something, then that person won't be able to understand or do something.
And yes, people are advised as you say, yet this is precisely what they who have an outlook as described above ("when in prison, you're supposed to be miserable") cannot do, they cannot follow that advice, because they understand it as an exhortation to fool themselves.
Sure. I don't doubt that people can adopt a view which is impervious to advice. They might need different advice to which their view provides no defence; sometimes the right teacher is skilful enough to show or tell them something which breaks through. The Buddha seems to have been able to do this with great success.

Or they might be encouraged to examine the view that you specified; they have the view that in prison, you are supposed to be miserable. I love this little story from Suvimalee Karunaratna, which is about attitudes to prison:
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/aut ... bl125.html

(I have an old copy given by a monk, but was pleased to find it on ATI).

Or they might just be left to stew in their own juices, if their view is held to with great tenacity, and their resistance to advice is off-putting to others.
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Re: Negative thoughts to positive

Post by befriend »

Joyfulness came up in my heart chakra today in a 25 minute mindfulness meditation I never have felt joy too much in mindfulness meditation just comfort and peace usually the only adjustment I've made to my practice as you know has been replacing negative thinking to thinking positively. Just thought I'd share that I assume there is a correlation between right thought right effort and the enlightenment factor of joy coming up in Sattipathanna.
Take care of mindfulness and mindfulness will take care of you.
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