Questions about stream entry

[white wolf]

Hello dear forum members. I have questions about stream entry.

1. Is the first jhana enough to attain stream entry?

2. How long does it takes to attain stream entry? Is one lifetime enough or not?

3. Is it necessary to develop perfect morality?

Thank you for the answers.

[santa100]

1. Is the first jhana enough to attain stream entry?

2. How long does it takes to attain stream entry? Is one lifetime enough or not?

3. Is it necessary to develop perfect morality?

#1. While the jhanas would help, there's no guarantee in and of themselves. Even those higher formless attainments ( spheres of Infinite-Space, Infinite-Consciousness, etc... ) don't guarantee it, for Concentration is only part of the equation. The other part is Insight into the Three marks of existence

#2. A difficult question. Sorta like asking how long it'd take for a person to master playing the violin. It'd take a combination of nature and nurture. A child prodigy could master the instrument by the age of 7 while some 97 year-old would still have problem playing it.

#3. While it's possible that a Sotapanna might break a few minor rules, s/he'd recognize the mistake and correct it immediately. But regarding the fundamental ones like the Five Precepts, yes, it's a must-have.

[Mahabrahma]

Understand that with the power of your compassion for yourself you can overcome any hurdles you think you may have to Stream Entry. Those who sit and believe they cannot enter because of this and this process needing to be done have some merit, they understand there must be qualifications and that one must be pure and working towards that. However, when someone gets too caught up in the regulations without seeing the purpose behind them, they may hold themselves and others back from something that can be a quick accomplishment. Stream Entry can be a quick accomplishment, part of what is needed is faith in oneself and faith in Buddhist principles, then with the immediate practices of Metta, and everything that encompasses Bodhicitta, one can enter the Stream in an instant, in a moment such as witnessing a sunbeam or saying a Mantra, or an inbreath in meditation. It is the state of your Loving-kindness that will help you enter the Stream quicker, because Loving-kindness is what the Nirvana Stream is composed of. It is made for our Metta as human beings and as Buddhists, also accessible to all life in any stage of it's development. It is a question of whether one wants to surrender fully to the Buddha, or stay in Samsara to Lord it over material nature. It is only better to go with the Buddha.

[Crazy cloud]

When one has reached a point where that question doesn't make any sense but just keep on practicing because that makes the only sense, one has reached the stream.

[white wolf]

#1. While the jhanas would help, there's no guarantee in and of themselves. Even those higher formless attainments ( spheres of Infinite-Space, Infinite-Consciousness, etc... ) don't guarantee it, for Concentration is only part of the equation. The other part is Insight into the Three marks of existence

How do I get insight into the three marks of existence?

Do you mean I need to practice both Vipassana and Samatha? Is Mahasi Sayadaw Vipassana meditation suitable?

#3. While it's possible that a Sotapanna might break a few minor rules, s/he'd recognize the mistake and correct it immediately. But regarding the fundamental ones like the Five Precepts, yes, it's a must-have.

What do you mean by minor rules? Which minor rules?

[cappuccino]

just understand dependent arising…


Pratītyasamutpāda

[white wolf]

Understand that with the power of your compassion for yourself you can overcome any hurdles you think you may have to Stream Entry. Those who sit and believe they cannot enter because of this and this process needing to be done have some merit, they understand there must be qualifications and that one must be pure and working towards that. However, when someone gets too caught up in the regulations without seeing the purpose behind them, they may hold themselves and others back from something that can be a quick accomplishment. Stream Entry can be a quick accomplishment, part of what is needed is faith in oneself and faith in Buddhist principles, then with the immediate practices of Metta, and everything that encompasses Bodhicitta, one can enter the Stream in an instant, in a moment such as witnessing a sunbeam or saying a Mantra, or an inbreath in meditation. It is the state of your Loving-kindness that will help you enter the Stream quicker, because Loving-kindness is what the Nirvana Stream is composed of. It is made for our Metta as human beings and as Buddhists, also accessible to all life in any stage of it's development. It is a question of whether one wants to surrender fully to the Buddha, or stay in Samsara to Lord it over material nature. It is only better to go with the Buddha.

Are unwholesome thoughts hindrances? Is it necessary to remove unwholesome thoughts?

MN 20 The Removal Of Distracting Thoughts

https://suttacentral.net/mn20/en/bodhi

[white wolf]

just understand dependent arising…


Pratītyasamutpāda

How? By jhana?

[cappuccino]

just understand dependent arising…

How? By jhana?

just understand…

The Tathagata … does not delight in earth. Why is that?

Because he has known that delight is the root of suffering & stress, that from coming-into-being there is birth, and that for what has come into being there is aging & death.

[Mahabrahma]

Are unwholesome thoughts hindrances? Is it necessary to remove unwholesome thoughts?

MN 20 The Removal Of Distracting Thoughts

https://suttacentral.net/mn20/en/bodhi

Yes, fully and completely, to abandon material desires and overcome material entanglement.

As at the end of the Sutta:

“Bhikkhus, when a bhikkhu is giving attention to some sign, and owing to that sign there arise in him evil unwholesome thoughts connected with desire, with hate, and with delusion, then when he gives attention to some other sign connected with what is wholesome, any such evil unwholesome thoughts are abandoned in him and subside, and with the abandoning of them his mind becomes steadied internally, quieted, brought to singleness, and concentrated. When he examines the danger in those thoughts…When he tries to forget those thoughts and does not give attention to them…When he gives attention to stilling the thought-formation of those thoughts…When, with his teeth clenched and his tongue pressed against the roof of his mouth, he beats down, constrains, and crushes mind with mind, any such evil unwholesome thoughts are abandoned in him…and his mind becomes steadied internally, quieted, brought to singleness, and concentrated. This bhikkhu is then called a master of the courses of thought. He will think whatever thought he wishes to think and he will not think any thought that he does not wish to think. He has severed craving, flung off the fetters, and with the complete penetration of conceit he has made an end of suffering.”

It says one must crush mind with mind, and purify one's thought process. This can be done in an instant of understanding what to do, but as long as you have any desire to enjoy the material world, you will be held back. Buddhism is about pure Spiritual Enlightenment and in that there is great Spiritual enjoyment, as one feels Truth in experiencing Love, which is not material. It is Transcendental. Therefore if you accept only Buddha's ways with no other aim, and in full Bodhicitta attain Enlightenment, you will enter the Stream of Nirvana, fully, forever, and you yourself will be a manifestation of Nirvana. Such a thing is truly marvelous. May you achieve such Enlightenment soon. Om.

[white wolf]

Are unwholesome thoughts hindrances? Is it necessary to remove unwholesome thoughts?

MN 20 The Removal Of Distracting Thoughts

https://suttacentral.net/mn20/en/bodhi

Yes, fully and completely, to abandon material desires and overcome material entanglement.

As at the end of the Sutta:

“Bhikkhus, when a bhikkhu is giving attention to some sign, and owing to that sign there arise in him evil unwholesome thoughts connected with desire, with hate, and with delusion, then when he gives attention to some other sign connected with what is wholesome, any such evil unwholesome thoughts are abandoned in him and subside, and with the abandoning of them his mind becomes steadied internally, quieted, brought to singleness, and concentrated. When he examines the danger in those thoughts…When he tries to forget those thoughts and does not give attention to them…When he gives attention to stilling the thought-formation of those thoughts…When, with his teeth clenched and his tongue pressed against the roof of his mouth, he beats down, constrains, and crushes mind with mind, any such evil unwholesome thoughts are abandoned in him…and his mind becomes steadied internally, quieted, brought to singleness, and concentrated. This bhikkhu is then called a master of the courses of thought. He will think whatever thought he wishes to think and he will not think any thought that he does not wish to think. He has severed craving, flung off the fetters, and with the complete penetration of conceit he has made an end of suffering.”

It says one must crush mind with mind, and purify one's thought process. This can be done in an instant of understanding what to do, but as long as you have any desire to enjoy the material world, you will be held back. Buddhism is about pure Spiritual Enlightenment and in that there is great Spiritual enjoyment, as one feels Truth in experiencing Love, which is not material. It is Transcendental. Therefore if you accept only Buddha's ways with no other aim, and in full Bodhicitta attain Enlightenment, you will enter the Stream of Nirvana, fully, forever, and you yourself will be a manifestation of Nirvana. Such a thing is truly marvelous. May you achieve such Enlightenment soon. Om.

Thank you.

It says one must crush mind with mind, and purify one's thought process. This can be done in an instant of understanding what to do, but as long as you have any desire to enjoy the material world, you will be held back.

I don't understand it. There are married laypersons in the suttas. They attained stream entry. Being married and having sex means enjoying sensual pleasures. How do a married layperson renounce the desire to enjoy the material world?

I want to attain stream entry but I have desire to enjoy the material world. I want to enjoy sensual pleasures. What should I do? Will samatha jhana and insight reduce the desire to enjoy the material world?

[SarathW]

1. Is the first jhana enough to attain stream entry? Yes, the way I understand. However, it is the entry point. What you need is to practice Satipathana.

2. How long does it takes to attain stream entry? Is one lifetime enough or not? Yes one lifetime is enough if you practice correctly.

3. Is it necessary to develop perfect morality? Please see Santa's answer.

[coconut]

Hello dear forum members. I have questions about stream entry.

1. Is the first jhana enough to attain stream entry?

Yes. You attain the fruit of stream entry by seeing the drawbacks (3 characteristics) of the 5 aggregates while in first jhana and this shows you that dependent origination is right. Therefore you must have 100% complete theoretical understanding of the 4 noble truths, 5 aggregates, and dependent origination.


One enters the path with Right View, I recommend you thoroughly study the Samma Ditthi sutta.

2. How long does it takes to attain stream entry? Is one lifetime enough or not?

As long as it takes you to have a full theoretical understanding of the four noble truths, five aggregates, and dependent origination, as well as confirming dependent origination in first jhana.

3. Is it necessary to develop perfect morality?

Yes. You can't have seclusion from unwholesome states, which is a requirement for first jhana without perfect morality. Specifically, virtue leads to pamojja which leads to piti, a jhana factor.

[DooDoot]

1. Is the first jhana enough to attain stream entry?

It seems the stream-enterer generally is not regarded to have reached jhana. Refer to this link. However, to attain stream entry, it seems the mind must have clear samadhi, called "neighbourhood concentration" in the Commentaries.

2. How long does it takes to attain stream entry? Is one lifetime enough or not?

I imagine it takes one moment of having & then sustaining the right view that has matured as letting go (vossagga). The right view is craving causes suffering that matures as dropping craving & letting go (vossagga).

3. Is it necessary to develop perfect morality?

Close to perfect, for the most part, probably, particularly the 5 precepts. In other words, perfect enough so there is no significant hindrances to neighbourhood concentration. However, there could be exceptions or a fluke, where the mind of a not so moral person has happened to let go and enter into the stream.

[Mahabrahma]

I don't understand it. There are married laypersons in the suttas. They attained stream entry. Being married and having sex means enjoying sensual pleasures. How do a married layperson renounce the desire to enjoy the material world?

I want to attain stream entry but I have desire to enjoy the material world. I want to enjoy sensual pleasures. What should I do? Will samatha jhana and insight reduce the desire to enjoy the material world?

The material world is evil. But Love is Spiritual and Buddhist, not material. Sacred marriage with a Loving partner is all Love and all good. Feeling Love, cultivating Love, and giving Mahakaruna and Love is the goal of life. Nirvana is a Stream of Love, and there is Transcendental enjoyment, not material enjoyment there. In Nirvana there is great happiness, you become full happiness and fully satisfied in who you are.

In this life you can attain Nirvana and still enjoy milkshakes, healthy time with your partner, a nice movie, as long as all you are going for is Love. I am not talking about clinging or lust or unhealthy attachment, but a quality of life where you have developed your Transcendental senses in accordance with the Buddha's doctrine. There's that saying "do what makes you happy." Well, only following and accepting Buddha's philosophy can make you happy, and to be a Buddha and ultimate happiness is what you want.