Does the Dhamma take care of its own?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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No_Mind
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Does the Dhamma take care of its own?

Post by No_Mind »

Rather strange question and I do not know if there are any references in the sutta.

If one lives very strictly in line with the Dhamma (dot all i's and cross all t's) it means giving up not only lust, greed and similar but also other important things that matter a lot ..

Such as networking .. online or offline .. (networking leads to mental proliferation)

Such as knowing/cultivating people who might come in handy later on .. being more nice than necessary to the neighborhood doctor .. because one might get corona ..

Being nice to nasty friends and relatives .. who knows when one might become unemployed and need help .. can't tell them they are right wing pigs .. have to nod when they espouse their wish to commence a pogrom against Muslims or something equally disgusting.

and so on ..

Basically being Dhammic means tossing out socializing and throwing all babies out with the social bath water (the babies that help us to survive in a society)

In your experience and understanding does the Dhamma protect and shield those who accept it with complete trust, faith, saddha?

Edit Add - The question comes up from contemplation of the phrase "wholesome morality".
The rewards of virtue
[Ananda:] "What, O Venerable One, is the reward and blessing of wholesome morality?"

[The Buddha:] "Freedom from remorse, Ananda."

"And of freedom from remorse?"

"Joy, Ananda"

"And of joy?"

"Rapture, Ananda"

"And of rapture?"

"Tranquillity, Ananda."

"And of tranquillity?"

"Happiness, Ananda."

"And of happiness?"

"Concentration, Ananda."

"And of concentration?"

"Vision and knowledge according to reality."

"And of the vision and knowledge according to reality?"

"Turning away and detachment, Ananda."

"And of turning away and detachment?"

"The vision and knowledge with regard to Deliverance, Ananda."

— AN 10.1 (Nyanatiloka, trans.; from Path to Deliverance, pp. 65-66)

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dha ... index.html
:namaste:
Last edited by No_Mind on Fri Oct 16, 2020 3:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"The struggle itself toward the heights is enough to fill a man's heart. One must imagine Sisyphus happy.”― Albert Camus
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cappuccino
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Re: Does the Dhamma take care of its own?

Post by cappuccino »

Maha-mangala Sutta: Protection

the Blessed One wrote:Though touched by worldly circumstances,
Never his mind is wavering,
Sorrowless, stainless and secure:
This, the Highest Blessing.

Since by acting in this way,
They are everywhere unvanquished,
And everywhere they go in safety:
Theirs, the Highest Blessings.
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Mahabrahma
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Re: Does the Dhamma take care of its own?

Post by Mahabrahma »

There are many High Buddhists in the Dhamma who live very, very difficult lives to save others, living in poor living conditions for example in third world countries in order to help them or working as medics in wars. These are not non-Buddhist lifestyles.
No_Mind wrote: Fri Oct 16, 2020 3:07 pm have to nod when they espouse their wish to commence a pogrom against Muslims or something equally disgusting.
You cannot nod at something like this, this is when you give a stern and Loving rebuke, espousing Buddhist doctrine of nonviolence so that they will eventually change their minds.
No_Mind wrote: Fri Oct 16, 2020 3:07 pm Basically being Dhammic means tossing out socializing and throwing all babies out with the social bath water (the babies that help us to survive in a society)
This is an incorrect metaphor. There is nothing more important to Buddha than a baby. We must nurture our society and build it up to the full morality you are seeking in the Dhamma, for the Dhamma is created to make a peaceful and Loving society, so that everyone can live in Enlightenment and happiness, in cooperation with Dhammic principles.
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cappuccino
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Re: Does the Dhamma take care of its own?

Post by cappuccino »

Mahabrahma wrote: Fri Oct 16, 2020 3:31 pm for the Dhamma is created to make a peaceful and Loving society, so that everyone can live in Enlightenment
this is not possible


enlightenment is extremely rare
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cappuccino
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Re: Does the Dhamma take care of its own?

Post by cappuccino »

I'm annoyed by the delusion that everyone will become enlightened


somehow it feels insulting to my intelligence
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Mahabrahma
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Re: Does the Dhamma take care of its own?

Post by Mahabrahma »

cappuccino wrote: Fri Oct 16, 2020 3:36 pm
Mahabrahma wrote: Fri Oct 16, 2020 3:31 pm for the Dhamma is created to make a peaceful and Loving society, so that everyone can live in Enlightenment
this is not possible


enlightenment is extremely rare
Enlightenment may be rare, but Enlightenment is for everyone. It is the only way. This is the purpose of Buddhism. Look at all the Buddhists today, on their way to Enlightenment. The purpose of Buddhism is to create Buddhas, not just Buddhists.
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Mahabrahma
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Re: Does the Dhamma take care of its own?

Post by Mahabrahma »

cappuccino wrote: Fri Oct 16, 2020 3:41 pm I'm annoyed by the delusion that everyone will become enlightened


somehow it feels insulting to my intelligence
Why do you think that there are people who will be in delusion and suffering forever? And you are extremely intelligent.
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cappuccino
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Re: Does the Dhamma take care of its own?

Post by cappuccino »

Mahabrahma wrote: Fri Oct 16, 2020 3:43 pm but Enlightenment is for everyone.
almost no one is enlightened


this is ever the case


stop being so deluded, please
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No_Mind
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Re: Does the Dhamma take care of its own?

Post by No_Mind »

Mahabrahma wrote: Fri Oct 16, 2020 3:31 pm
No_Mind wrote: Fri Oct 16, 2020 3:07 pm have to nod when they espouse their wish to commence a pogrom against Muslims or something equally disgusting.
You cannot nod at something like this, this is when you give a stern and Loving rebuke, espousing Buddhist doctrine of nonviolence so that they will eventually change their minds.
Uh .. I strictly adhere to the Hina part of Hinayana .. MY salvation ..

:namaste:
Last edited by No_Mind on Fri Oct 16, 2020 3:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"The struggle itself toward the heights is enough to fill a man's heart. One must imagine Sisyphus happy.”― Albert Camus
binocular
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Re: Does the Dhamma take care of its own?

Post by binocular »

Does the Dhamma take care of its own?
No, one is left to die in the gutter.

What did you expect? That you'd be spared the ultimate test?
Hic Rhodus, hic salta!
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Re: Does the Dhamma take care of its own?

Post by SteRo »

No_Mind wrote: Fri Oct 16, 2020 3:07 pm ... does the Dhamma protect and shield those who accept it with complete trust, faith, saddha?
The doctrine teaches to not seek protection in what is impermanent, miserable and not-self.
Exhaling अ and inhaling धीः amounts to བྷྲཱུཾ་བི་ཤྭ་བི་ཤུད་དྷེ
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Mahabrahma
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Re: Does the Dhamma take care of its own?

Post by Mahabrahma »

No_Mind wrote: Fri Oct 16, 2020 3:46 pm
Mahabrahma wrote: Fri Oct 16, 2020 3:31 pm
No_Mind wrote: Fri Oct 16, 2020 3:07 pm have to nod when they espouse their wish to commence a pogrom against Muslims or something equally disgusting.
You cannot nod at something like this, this is when you give a stern and Loving rebuke, espousing Buddhist doctrine of nonviolence so that they will eventually change their minds.
Uh .. I strictly adhere to the Hina part of Hinayana .. MY salvation ..

:namaste:
You cannot be saved without being a good person. If you simply live in a selfish way to avoid sorrows while they increase for others, you will be building up your own illusions about life and ebbing away from Enlightenment.
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No_Mind
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Re: Does the Dhamma take care of its own?

Post by No_Mind »

binocular wrote: Fri Oct 16, 2020 3:47 pm
Does the Dhamma take care of its own?
No, one is left to die in the gutter.

What did you expect? That you'd be spared the ultimate test?
Could you wait till end of page 2 before tossing the grenade in the foxhole :guns:
Mahabrahma wrote: Fri Oct 16, 2020 4:06 pm
No_Mind wrote: Fri Oct 16, 2020 3:46 pm
Mahabrahma wrote: Fri Oct 16, 2020 3:31 pm

You cannot nod at something like this, this is when you give a stern and Loving rebuke, espousing Buddhist doctrine of nonviolence so that they will eventually change their minds.
Uh .. I strictly adhere to the Hina part of Hinayana .. MY salvation ..

:namaste:
You cannot be saved without being a good person. If you simply live in a selfish way to avoid sorrows while they increase for others, you will be building up your own illusions about life and ebbing away from Enlightenment.
Can't agree. Being a good person does not include changing others to being good or curing them of their mistaken notions.

:namaste:
"The struggle itself toward the heights is enough to fill a man's heart. One must imagine Sisyphus happy.”― Albert Camus
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Bundokji
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Re: Does the Dhamma take care of its own?

Post by Bundokji »

I think the more one quits willing and planning, the more the dhamma takes its natural course:

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .wlsh.html
"Monks, what a man wills, what he plans, what he dwells on forms the basis for the continuation of consciousness.[2] This basis being present, consciousness has a lodgment. Consciousness being lodged there and growing, rebirth of renewed existence takes place in the future, and from this renewed existence arise birth, decay-and-death, grief, lamentation, suffering, sorrow and despair. Such is the uprising of this entire mass of suffering.

"Even if a man does not will and plan, yet if he dwells on something this forms a basis for the continuation of consciousness:... rebirth... takes place...

"But if a man neither wills nor plans nor dwells on anything, no basis is formed for the continuation of consciousness. This basis being absent, consciousness has no lodgment. Consciousness not being lodged there and not growing, no rebirth of renewed existence takes place in the future, and so birth, decay-and-death, grief, lamentation, suffering, sorrow and despair are destroyed. Such is the cessation of this entire mass of suffering."
What you described sounds too conditional, too real to be true.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
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Mahabrahma
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Re: Does the Dhamma take care of its own?

Post by Mahabrahma »

No_Mind wrote: Fri Oct 16, 2020 4:10 pm Can't agree. Being a good person does not include changing others to being good or curing them of their mistaken notions.

:namaste:
Yes it does. Not doing good makes you not a good person. It makes you selfish and lacking Loving-kindness. You are here to be with others in this world. So think: Why?

What if the Buddha didn't try to change other people for the better?
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