The Nirvana of the Arhat and the Nirvana of the Buddha, and also the difference between an Arhat and a Buddha.

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Mahabrahma
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The Nirvana of the Arhat and the Nirvana of the Buddha, and also the difference between an Arhat and a Buddha.

Post by Mahabrahma »

What is the difference between the Nirvana of the Arhat and the Nirvana of the Buddha, and also, what is the direct difference between an Arhat and a Buddha?

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Re: The Nirvana of the Arhat and the Nirvana of the Buddha, and also the difference between an Arhat and a Buddha.

Post by confusedlayman »

Mahabrahma wrote: Sat Oct 24, 2020 2:04 pm What is the difference between the Nirvana of the Arhat and the Nirvana of the Buddha, and also, what is the direct difference between an Arhat and a Buddha?

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No diff in nirvana
dont think
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Re: The Nirvana of the Arhat and the Nirvana of the Buddha, and also the difference between an Arhat and a Buddha.

Post by tamdrin »

A bodhisattva on the 6th stage of enlightenment is in nirvana but is still able to help other beings. The Buddha's nirvana is far superior to an arhats.
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Re: The Nirvana of the Arhat and the Nirvana of the Buddha, and also the difference between an Arhat and a Buddha.

Post by tamdrin »

The truth is Theravada does not understand the true nature of nirvana of the buddha. Why? Because Theravada explains the path to arhatship. Mahayana explains the path to Buddhahood.
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Re: The Nirvana of the Arhat and the Nirvana of the Buddha, and also the difference between an Arhat and a Buddha.

Post by Coëmgenu »

Arhatship is a variety of Buddhahood. Arhats are called Sāvakabuddhas.
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Re: The Nirvana of the Arhat and the Nirvana of the Buddha, and also the difference between an Arhat and a Buddha.

Post by DNS »

tamdrin wrote: Sat Oct 24, 2020 2:23 pm The truth is Theravada does not understand the true nature of nirvana of the buddha. Why? Because Theravada explains the path to arhatship. Mahayana explains the path to Buddhahood.
That is a Mahayana view.
https://dharmawheel.net/

The Theravada view is that an arahant is one who attains full enlightenment and nibbana, same like a Buddha. A Samma-Sam-Buddha is the very rare being who attains enlightenment when there is no current Dispensation and then teaches the masses. Dipankara, Kassapa and Gotama are Samma-Sam-Buddhas.

An arahant attains enlightenment during a Dispensation, such as Moggallana, Sariputta.
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Re: The Nirvana of the Arhat and the Nirvana of the Buddha, and also the difference between an Arhat and a Buddha.

Post by tamdrin »

DNS wrote: Sat Oct 24, 2020 2:30 pm
tamdrin wrote: Sat Oct 24, 2020 2:23 pm The truth is Theravada does not understand the true nature of nirvana of the buddha. Why? Because Theravada explains the path to arhatship. Mahayana explains the path to Buddhahood.
That is a Mahayana view.
https://dharmawheel.net/

The Theravada view is that an arahant is one who attains full enlightenment and nibbana, same like a Buddha. A Samma-Sam-Buddha is the very rare being who attains enlightenment when there is no current Dispensation and then teaches the masses. Dipankara, Kassapa and Gotama are Samma-Sam-Buddhas.

An arahant attains enlightenment during a Dispensation, such as Moggallana, Sariputta.
You read the biography of Ajahn Mun? He was surprised when he attained arhatship and the Buddha appeared to congratulate him. This is what his experience said not some dusty old texts. The Buddhas never pass into nirvana completely but have some aspect of helping other beings.
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Re: The Nirvana of the Arhat and the Nirvana of the Buddha, and also the difference between an Arhat and a Buddha.

Post by SDC »

SN 22.58 wrote:At Savatthi. “Bhikkhus, the Tathagata, the Arahant, the Perfectly Enlightened One, liberated by nonclinging through revulsion towards form, through its fading away and cessation, is called a Perfectly Enlightened One. A bhikkhu liberated by wisdom, liberated by nonclinging through revulsion towards form, through its fading away and cessation, is called one liberated by wisdom.

“The Tathagata, the Arahant, the Perfectly Enlightened One, liberated by nonclinging through revulsion towards feeling … perception … volitional formations … consciousness, through its fading away and cessation, is called a Perfectly Enlightened One. A bhikkhu liberated by wisdom, liberated by nonclinging through revulsion towards feeling … perception … volitional formations … consciousness, through its fading away and cessation, is called one liberated by wisdom.

“Therein, bhikkhus, what is the distinction, what is the disparity, what is the difference between the Tathagata, the Arahant, the Perfectly Enlightened One, and a bhikkhu liberated by wisdom?

“Venerable sir, our teachings are rooted in the Blessed One, guided by the Blessed One, take recourse in the Blessed One. It would be good if the Blessed One would clear up the meaning of this statement. Having heard it from him, the bhikkhus will remember it.”

“Then listen and attend closely, bhikkhus, I will speak.”

“Yes, venerable sir,” the bhikkhus replied. The Blessed One said this:

“The Tathagata, bhikkhus, the Arahant, the Perfectly Enlightened One, is the originator of the path unarisen before, the producer of the path unproduced before, the declarer of the path undeclared before. He is the knower of the path, the discoverer of the path, the one skilled in the path. And his disciples now dwell following that path and become possessed of it afterwards.

“This, bhikkhus, is the distinction, the disparity, the difference between the Tathagata, the Arahant, the Perfectly Enlightened One, and a bhikkhu liberated by wisdom.”
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Re: The Nirvana of the Arhat and the Nirvana of the Buddha, and also the difference between an Arhat and a Buddha.

Post by Pulsar »

Dearest OP: DNS and SDC already answered your query. Is it to your satisfaction?
I am here to comment on a comment.
Tamdrin wrote
You read the biography of Ajahn Mun? He was surprised when he attained arhatship and the Buddha appeared to congratulate him. This is what his experience said not some dusty old texts. The Buddhas never pass into nirvana completely but have some aspect of helping other beings.
Seriously? on a different note "why was he surprised?" What do you mean by
not some dusty old texts?
Are you referring to Buddha's teaching as reported in the Thripitaka? True there are some flaws in transmission, but these dusty old texts never report that Buddha after Parinirvana appeared, or while alive appeared to congratulate the Arahants.
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Re: The Nirvana of the Arhat and the Nirvana of the Buddha, and also the difference between an Arhat and a Buddha.

Post by dharmacorps »

The ajahn Mun reference is cherrypicking in the extreme. It is one of the only examples I can think of where a theravada monk reports interacting with a Buddha.
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Re: The Nirvana of the Arhat and the Nirvana of the Buddha, and also the difference between an Arhat and a Buddha.

Post by Mahabrahma »

Thank you all for your wonderful answers. I have always viewed the Buddha as a Perfect Arhat, the Tathagata, the Bhagavat, the Perfectly Enlightened One, so your answers confirm to me the perceptions of the Theravadin view of honouring the Buddha. I believe this Theravadin view strengthens the core of Buddhism. Thank you so much. :anjali:
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Re: The Nirvana of the Arhat and the Nirvana of the Buddha, and also the difference between an Arhat and a Buddha.

Post by DooDoot »

Coëmgenu wrote: Sat Oct 24, 2020 2:25 pm Arhatship is a variety of Buddhahood. Arhats are called Sāvakabuddhas.
Buddhahood is a variety of Arahatship . The term savakabuddha is used in Theravadin commentaries but does not occur in the scriptures of the Pāli Canon.
Mahabrahma wrote: Sat Oct 24, 2020 6:39 pm I have always viewed the Buddha as a Perfect Arhat, the Tathagata, the Bhagavat, the Perfectly Enlightened One, so your answers confirm to me the perceptions of the Theravadin view of honouring the Buddha..
As quoted by SDC, a Sammasambuddha is the original Arahant that starts the Buddhist religion; such as Gotama.
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Re: The Nirvana of the Arhat and the Nirvana of the Buddha, and also the difference between an Arhat and a Buddha.

Post by tamdrin »

SDC wrote: Sat Oct 24, 2020 3:16 pm
SN 22.58 wrote:At Savatthi. “Bhikkhus, the Tathagata, the Arahant, the Perfectly Enlightened One, liberated by nonclinging through revulsion towards form, through its fading away and cessation, is called a Perfectly Enlightened One. A bhikkhu liberated by wisdom, liberated by nonclinging through revulsion towards form, through its fading away and cessation, is called one liberated by wisdom.

“The Tathagata, the Arahant, the Perfectly Enlightened One, liberated by nonclinging through revulsion towards feeling … perception … volitional formations … consciousness, through its fading away and cessation, is called a Perfectly Enlightened One. A bhikkhu liberated by wisdom, liberated by nonclinging through revulsion towards feeling … perception … volitional formations … consciousness, through its fading away and cessation, is called one liberated by wisdom.

“Therein, bhikkhus, what is the distinction, what is the disparity, what is the difference between the Tathagata, the Arahant, the Perfectly Enlightened One, and a bhikkhu liberated by wisdom?

“Venerable sir, our teachings are rooted in the Blessed One, guided by the Blessed One, take recourse in the Blessed One. It would be good if the Blessed One would clear up the meaning of this statement. Having heard it from him, the bhikkhus will remember it.”

“Then listen and attend closely, bhikkhus, I will speak.”

“Yes, venerable sir,” the bhikkhus replied. The Blessed One said this:

“The Tathagata, bhikkhus, the Arahant, the Perfectly Enlightened One, is the originator of the path unarisen before, the producer of the path unproduced before, the declarer of the path undeclared before. He is the knower of the path, the discoverer of the path, the one skilled in the path. And his disciples now dwell following that path and become possessed of it afterwards.

“This, bhikkhus, is the distinction, the disparity, the difference between the Tathagata, the Arahant, the Perfectly Enlightened One, and a bhikkhu liberated by wisdom.”
You have to understand. This isn't the whole story. According to Theravada tradition the Buddha had to practice for 3 mahakalpas and 100,000 eons to become a Buddha. On the way he met many Buddhas such as Dipankara and received their teachings. So he did not just "discover" the dhamma in one life and become a Buddha in that life.
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Post by sunnat »

Sure, he's come across the dhamma in the past. Many have.

How he describes it (paraphrasing) after enlightenment : "wise people told me that if I can see the creator, the builder of this house, namarupa phenomenon, I will reach the goal. I spent many lifetimes seeking the creator. Now he is seen. The house is demolished and there will be no more becoming."

what a fully self realised Teaching Buddha accomplishes is walking the whole path thus discovering the real meaning of what he learnt before. He then (unlike the many private buddhas that also reach the goal but cannot teach) is able to teach and ushers in a new Buddha Sasana. When that is passed and the true meaning forgotten, the stage is set for the next Buddha to re-discover it.
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Post by tamdrin »

sunnat wrote: Sun Oct 25, 2020 5:40 am Sure, he's come across the dhamma in the past. Many have.

How he describes it (paraphrasing) after enlightenment : "wise people told me that if I can see the creator, the builder of this house, namarupa phenomenon, I will reach the goal. I spent many lifetimes seeking the creator. Now he is seen. The house is demolished and there will be no more becoming."

what a fully self realised Teaching Buddha accomplishes is walking the whole path thus discovering the real meaning of what he learnt before. He then (unlike the many private buddhas that also reach the goal but cannot teach) is able to teach and ushers in a new Buddha Sasana. When that is passed and the true meaning forgotten, the stage is set for the next Buddha to re-discover it.


Is it true that according to Theravada it takes 3 mahakalpas and 100,000 eons to become a Buddha or not? This is what I have heard from Theravada teachers although I have never read anything about it in a text. If this is the case how could the Buddha not have many special qualities from all that parami? How long does it take to become an arhat? I guess that depends on a lot of factors.
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