Let's discuss what exactly is "name and form" in DO

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form
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Let's discuss what exactly is "name and form" in DO

Post by form »

Consciousness give rise to (1) name and form.

It is also translated at (2) mentality and materiality, also as (3) body and mind

Can we assume the second and third translation are wrong?
SarathW
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Re: Let's discuss what exactly is "name and form" in DO

Post by SarathW »

Say if you see a lump of clay it is called the Rupa or Patavi
If you identify the lump of clay as, say plate,cup,buddha etc then it is Nama-rupa
However what Buddha called Rupa (Patavi) is not, for instance physical clay.
What you feel when you touch is the Rupa. (hardness, softness, cold and heat)
In that regard if you identify a lump of clay then that also become Nama-rupa.

Identify a clay pot is a function of eye.
Identifying softness etc a function of body.
Giving a name is a function of mind.
Hence Nama-rupa is a function of the mind.

That is how I understand it and I may be wrong.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta
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Re: Let's discuss what exactly is "name and form" in DO

Post by Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta »

.


  • One of my favorite explanations regarding form:
    • from: The Law of Dependent Arising (Paṭicca Samuppāda) Bhikkhu K. Ñāṇananda
      So ‘rūpa’ is in effect ‘rūpa saññā’ (perception of form) derived from the four great primaries. Take it that way, for that is how the ‘non-descripts’ become ‘describable’. What we have here is not that ‘matter’ (rūpa) the scientists have in mind. ...

      ... Form in ‘name and form’ is nominal form’
    • It must be so, and with that understanding, I can truely appreciate what some Sayadaws have explained. :anjali:






  • That said, all three pairs of translations are applicable depending upon context, imo. For example, even Ven. Nanananda had to define the terms in his way to be used in his context:
    • To explain this, we coined various definitions:

      ‘Name in ‘name and form’ is formal name, Form in ‘name and form’ is nominal form’


      from: The Law of Dependent Arising (Paṭicca Samuppāda) Bhikkhu K. Ñāṇananda
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.


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Re: Let's discuss what exactly is "name and form" in DO

Post by confusedlayman »

form wrote: Wed Oct 28, 2020 1:04 am Consciousness give rise to (1) name and form.

It is also translated at (2) mentality and materiality, also as (3) body and mind

Can we assume the second and third translation are wrong?
New identity in form world or simply self identity (consisting of 5 aggregate)
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
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Re: Let's discuss what exactly is "name and form" in DO

Post by DooDoot »

SarathW wrote: Wed Oct 28, 2020 1:34 am Identify a clay pot is a function of eye.
Identifying softness etc a function of body.
Giving a name is a function of mind.
Hence Nama-rupa is a function of the mind.

That is how I understand it and I may be wrong.
Your understanding appears not wrong :) according to Brahmanism-Hinduism :roll:
confusedlayman wrote: Wed Oct 28, 2020 3:10 am New identity in form world or simply self identity (consisting of 5 aggregate)
Sutta appears to say self-identity arises from/after craving & becoming.
MN 44 wrote:The craving that makes for further becoming — accompanied by passion & delight, relishing now here & now there — i.e., craving for sensual pleasure, craving for becoming, craving for non-becoming: This, friend Visakha, is the origination of self-identification described by the Blessed One.

MN 44
:alien:
Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta wrote: Wed Oct 28, 2020 2:39 am
One of my favorite explanations regarding form:.....
So ‘rūpa’ is in effect ‘rūpa saññā’ (perception of form) derived from the four great primaries. Take it that way, for that is how the ‘non-descripts’ become ‘describable’. What we have here is not that ‘matter’ (rūpa) the scientists have in mind. ...

... Form in ‘name and form’ is nominal form’
It must be so, and with that understanding, I can truely appreciate what some Sayadaws have explained.

It might be your "favorite" but it sounds wrong based on many suttas, such as:
MN 18 wrote:Dependent on eye & forms, eye-consciousness arises. The meeting of the three is contact. With contact as a requisite condition, there is feeling. What one feels, one perceives (labels in the mind). What one perceives, one thinks about. What one thinks about, one objectifies. Based on what a person objectifies, the perceptions & categories of objectification assail him/her with regard to past, present, & future forms cognizable via the eye.

MN 18
DN 22 wrote:The eye... The ear... The nose... The tongue... The body... The intellect...

"Forms... Sounds... Smells... Tastes... Tactile sensations... Ideas...

"Eye-consciousness... Ear-consciousness... Nose-consciousness... Tongue-consciousness... Body-consciousness... Intellect-consciousness...

"Eye-contact... Ear-contact... Nose-contact... Tongue-contact... Body-contact... Intellect-contact...

"Feeling born of eye-contact... Feeling born of ear-contact... Feeling born of nose-contact... Feeling born of tongue-contact... Feeling born of body-contact... Feeling born of intellect-contact...

"Perception of forms... Perception of sounds... Perception of smells... Perception of tastes... Perception of tactile sensations... Perception of ideas...

"Intention for forms... Intention for sounds... Intention for smells... Intention for tastes... Intention for tactile sensations... Intention for ideas...

"Craving for forms... Craving for sounds... Craving for smells... Craving for tastes... Craving for tactile sensations... Craving for ideas...

"Thought directed at forms... Thought directed at sounds... Thought directed at smells... Thought directed at tastes... Thought directed at tactile sensations... Thought directed at ideas...

"Evaluation of forms... Evaluation of sounds... Evaluation of smells... Evaluation of tastes... Evaluation of tactile sensations... Evaluation of ideas seems endearing and agreeable in terms of the world. That is where this craving, when arising, arises. That is where, when dwelling, it dwells.

"This is called the noble truth of the origination of stress.

DN 22
Last edited by DooDoot on Wed Oct 28, 2020 3:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
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pegembara
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Re: Let's discuss what exactly is "name and form" in DO

Post by pegembara »

Rupa=appearance, look, form https://educalingo.com/en/dic-ms/rupa
Nama=name given to the appearance https://educalingo.com/en/dic-ms/nama

Nama-Rupa is also present in dreams.
"Very well then, Kotthita my friend, I will give you an analogy; for there are cases where it is through the use of an analogy that intelligent people can understand the meaning of what is being said. It is as if two sheaves of reeds were to stand leaning against one another. In the same way, from name-&-form as a requisite condition comes consciousness, from consciousness as a requisite condition comes name-&-form. From name & form as a requisite condition come the six sense media. From the six sense media as a requisite condition comes contact. From contact as a requisite condition comes feeling. From feeling as a requisite condition comes craving. From craving as a requisite condition comes clinging/sustenance. From clinging/sustenance as a requisite condition comes becoming. From becoming as a requisite condition comes birth. From birth as a requisite condition, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair come into play. Such is the origination of this entire mass of suffering & stress.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
"If one were to pull away one of those sheaves of reeds, the other would fall; if one were to pull away the other, the first one would fall. In the same way, from the cessation of name-&-form comes the cessation of consciousness, from the cessation of consciousness comes the cessation of name-&-form.
That is dependent co-arising. Consciousness is not independent of nama-rupa.
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
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Re: Let's discuss what exactly is "name and form" in DO

Post by form »

Thank you for all the inputs, I am reading them with interest. They will help me. Thank you all.
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Re: Let's discuss what exactly is "name and form" in DO

Post by DooDoot »

pegembara wrote: Wed Oct 28, 2020 3:35 am Rupa=appearance, look, form https://educalingo.com/en/dic-ms/rupa
Nama=name given to the appearance https://educalingo.com/en/dic-ms/nama
The suttas say:
Feeling, perception, volition, contact and attention — these are called nama.

The four great elements and the material form derived from the four great elements — these are called rupa.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .ntbb.html
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Re: Let's discuss what exactly is "name and form" in DO

Post by Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta »

pegembara wrote: Wed Oct 28, 2020 3:35 am ...
Consciousness is not independent of nama-rupa.
:goodpost:

  • This is where many scholars get stuck – this inter-dependence. If one starts searching from the other end: ‘What is the cause of decay and death? Birth. What is the cause of birth? Existence, or becoming’. If one goes on questioning like that and comes up to name and form, on searching further for its cause, one will find consciousness. But then search does not go beyond consciousness, for the cause of consciousness is name and form. Between these two there is an inter-dependence or a reciprocal relationship. This is the crux of the whole problem.
    from: The Law of Dependent Arising (Paṭicca Samuppāda) Bhikkhu K. Ñāṇananda
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Re: Let's discuss what exactly is "name and form" in DO

Post by DooDoot »

Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta wrote: Wed Oct 28, 2020 5:21 am
This is where many scholars get stuck – this inter-dependence. If one starts searching from the other end: ‘What is the cause of decay and death? Birth. What is the cause of birth? Existence, or becoming’. If one goes on questioning like that and comes up to name and form, on searching further for its cause, one will find consciousness. But then search does not go beyond consciousness, for the cause of consciousness is name and form. Between these two there is an inter-dependence or a reciprocal relationship. This is the crux of the whole problem.
Yes. Many scholars get stuck. It seems there can be consciousness without "naming" a form. :thinking:
Feeling, perception, volition, contact and attention — these are called nama.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Re: Let's discuss what exactly is "name and form" in DO

Post by form »

DooDoot wrote: Wed Oct 28, 2020 5:38 am
Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta wrote: Wed Oct 28, 2020 5:21 am
This is where many scholars get stuck – this inter-dependence. If one starts searching from the other end: ‘What is the cause of decay and death? Birth. What is the cause of birth? Existence, or becoming’. If one goes on questioning like that and comes up to name and form, on searching further for its cause, one will find consciousness. But then search does not go beyond consciousness, for the cause of consciousness is name and form. Between these two there is an inter-dependence or a reciprocal relationship. This is the crux of the whole problem.
Yes. Many scholars get stuck. It seems there can be consciousness without "naming" a form. :thinking:
Feeling, perception, volition, contact and attention — these are called nama.
My modern interpretation will be one that is compatible with modern psychology. Ignorance and volition (are impulses deeper in the psy), these are feedback from internal psy into consciousness, the inputs from external senses and external environments are "labelled" as name and form. Together and intertwining they continuously interact to form an existence until the body fails.
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Re: Let's discuss what exactly is "name and form" in DO

Post by SarathW »

DooDoot wrote: Wed Oct 28, 2020 4:41 am
pegembara wrote: Wed Oct 28, 2020 3:35 am Rupa=appearance, look, form https://educalingo.com/en/dic-ms/rupa
Nama=name given to the appearance https://educalingo.com/en/dic-ms/nama
The suttas say:
Feeling, perception, volition, contact and attention — these are called nama.

The four great elements and the material form derived from the four great elements — these are called rupa.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .ntbb.html
Hi DD
We all know this if you are in this forum for some time.
But tell us how do you understand it?
What it is said "Vinnana paccaya Nama-rupa"?
and
"Namarupa paccaya Vinnana"
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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Re: Let's discuss what exactly is "name and form" in DO

Post by justindesilva »

form wrote: Wed Oct 28, 2020 1:04 am Consciousness give rise to (1) name and form.

It is also translated at (2) mentality and materiality, also as (3) body and mind

Can we assume the second and third translation are wrong?
Nama Rupa are like software and hardware in computer literacy.
Apo tejo vayo patavi are the hardware forming Rupa or form.
Nama which is phassa vedana sangna sankara ( fabrications) or phassa vedana sangna cetana manasikara makes the basis for vingnana or consciousness or awareness.
Consciousness or vingnana again creates the path to form our own version of the world or concepts of sammuti Satya.
We see the world with nama Rupa, and proper understanding of nama Rupa ( samma ditthi sutta) is the way towards Arya magga or sowan, sakurdagami , anagami and Arhat.
We also see the world ( Loka) per Loka Sutta with Pancaskanda as created by nama Rupa conditioning salayatana ( Loka Sutta).
Nama Rupa is a core principal in understanding Paticca samuppada.
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Re: Let's discuss what exactly is "name and form" in DO

Post by justindesilva »

form wrote: Wed Oct 28, 2020 1:04 am Consciousness give rise to (1) name and form.

It is also translated at (2) mentality and materiality, also as (3) body and mind

Can we assume the second and third translation are wrong?
Nama Rupa are like software and hardware in computer literacy.
Apo tejo vayo patavi are the hardware forming Rupa or form.
Nama which is phassa vedana sangna sankara ( fabrications) or phassa vedana sangna sankara makes the basis for vingnana or consciousness or awareness.
Consciousness or vingnana again creates the path to form our own version of the world or concepts of sammuti Satya.
We see the world with nama Rupa, and proper understanding of nama Rupa ( samma ditthi sutta) is the way towards Arya magga or sowan, sakurdagami , anagami and Arhat.
We also see the world ( Loka) per Loka Sutta with Pancaskanda as created by nama Rupa conditioning salayatana ( Loka Sutta).
Nama Rupa is a core principal in understanding Paticca samuppada.
Considering body to be Rupa or form and mind to be vingnana with citta cetasika and mano , considering nama Rupa to be body and mind can be appreciated.
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Re: Let's discuss what exactly is "name and form" in DO

Post by DooDoot »

form wrote: Wed Oct 28, 2020 5:53 am form.
:reading:
The four great elements and the form derived from the four great elements: this is called form.

MN 9; SN 12.2
And what, bhikkhus, is form? The four great elements and the form derived from the four great elements: this is called form. With the arising of nutriment there is the arising of form. With the cessation of nutriment there is the cessation of form.

SN 22.56
‘Boil’ is a term for this body made up of the four primary elements, produced by mother and father, built up from rice and porridge, liable to impermanence, to wearing away and erosion, to breaking up and destruction

AN 9.15
this body composed of the four great elements is seen standing for a year, two years, three, four, five, ten, twenty, thirty, forty, fifty, a hundred years or more

SN 12.61
Rāhula, the interior earth element is said to be anything hard, solid, and organic that’s internal, pertaining to an individual. This includes: head hair, body hair, nails, teeth, skin, flesh, sinews, bones, bone marrow, kidneys, heart, liver, diaphragm, spleen, lungs, intestines, mesentery, undigested food, feces, or anything else hard, solid, and organic that’s internal, pertaining to an individual. This is called the interior earth element. The interior earth element and the exterior earth element are just the earth element. This should be truly seen with right understanding like this: ‘This is not mine, I am not this, this is not my self.’ When you truly see with right understanding, you reject the earth element, detaching the mind from the earth element.

And what is the water element? The water element may be interior or exterior. And what is the interior water element? Anything that’s water, watery, and organic that’s internal, pertaining to an individual. This includes: bile, phlegm, pus, blood, sweat, fat, tears, grease, saliva, snot, synovial fluid, urine, or anything else that’s water, watery, and organic that’s internal, pertaining to an individual. This is called the interior water element. The interior water element and the exterior water element are just the water element. This should be truly seen with right understanding like this: ‘This is not mine, I am not this, this is not my self.’ When you truly see with right understanding, you reject the water element, detaching the mind from the water element.

And what is the fire element? The fire element may be interior or exterior. And what is the interior fire element? Anything that’s fire, fiery, and organic that’s internal, pertaining to an individual. This includes: that which warms, that which ages, that which heats you up when feverish, that which properly digests food and drink, or anything else that’s fire, fiery, and organic that’s internal, pertaining to an individual. This is called the interior fire element. The interior fire element and the exterior fire element are just the fire element. This should be truly seen with right understanding like this: ‘This is not mine, I am not this, this is not my self.’ When you truly see with right understanding, you reject the fire element, detaching the mind from the fire element.

And what is the air element? The air element may be interior or exterior. And what is the interior air element? Anything that’s wind, windy, and organic that’s internal, pertaining to an individual. This includes: winds that go up or down, winds in the belly or the bowels, winds that flow through the limbs, in-breaths and out-breaths, or anything else that’s air, airy, and organic that’s internal, pertaining to an individual. This is called the interior air element. The interior air element and the exterior air element are just the air element. This should be truly seen with right understanding like this: ‘This is not mine, I am not this, this is not my self.’ When you truly see with right understanding, you reject the air element, detaching the mind from the air element.

MN 62
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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