Let's discuss what exactly is "name and form" in DO

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DooDoot
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Re: Let's discuss what exactly is "name and form" in DO

Post by DooDoot »

Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta wrote: Thu Oct 29, 2020 1:20 am
The possibility that Nama-Rupa being:
  • Subject & Object
  • Knower & Known
Quite embarrassing to read the many so-called Buddhists, including the Western disciples of Ajahn Chah, stuck in Hinduism. It appears there is no "subject" arising in D.O. until attachment & becoming.
SN 12.2 wrote:And what, bhikkhus, is clinging? There are these four kinds of clinging: clinging to sensual pleasures, clinging to views, clinging to rules and vows, clinging to a doctrine of self. This is called clinging.

SN 12.2
SN 12.2 wrote:"Lord, who makes contact?"

"Not a valid question," the Blessed One said. "I don't say 'makes contact.' If I were to say 'makes contact,' then 'Who makes contact?' would be a valid question. But I don't say that. When I don't say that, the valid question is 'From what as a requisite condition comes contact?' And the valid answer is, 'From the six sense media as a requisite condition comes contact. From contact as a requisite condition comes feeling.'"

"Lord, who feels?"

"Not a valid question," the Blessed One said. "I don't say 'feels.' If I were to say 'feels,' then 'Who feels?' would be a valid question. But I don't say that. When I don't say that, the valid question is 'From what as a requisite condition comes feeling?' And the valid answer is, 'From contact as a requisite condition comes feeling. From feeling as a requisite condition comes craving.'"

"Lord, who craves?"

"Not a valid question," the Blessed One said. "I don't say 'craves.' If I were to say 'craves,' then 'Who craves?' would be a valid question. But I don't say that. When I don't say that, the valid question is 'From what as a requisite condition comes craving?' And the valid answer is, 'From feeling as a requisite condition comes craving. From craving as a requisite condition comes clinging/sustenance.'"

"Lord, who clings?"

"Not a valid question," the Blessed One said. "I don't say 'clings.' If I were to say 'clings,' then 'Who clings?' would be a valid question. But I don't say that. When I don't say that, the valid question is 'From what as a requisite condition comes clinging?' And the valid answer is, 'From craving as a requisite condition comes clinging. From clinging as a requisite condition comes becoming. From becoming as a requisite condition comes birth. From birth as a requisite condition, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair come into play. Such is the origination of this entire mass of stress & suffering.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
If the idea of "subject" or 'self" arose at nama-rupa, then how could the following suttas end suffering? :shrug: :shrug:
MN 38 wrote:On seeing a form with the eye, he does not lust after it if it is pleasing; he does not dislike it if it is unpleasing. He abides with mindfulness of the body established, with an immeasurable mind, and he understands as it actually is the deliverance of mind and deliverance by wisdom wherein those evil unwholesome states cease without remainder. Having thus abandoned favouring and opposing, whatever feeling he feels, whether pleasant or painful or neither-painful-nor-pleasant, he does not delight in that feeling, welcome it, or remain holding to it. As he does not do so, delight in feelings ceases in him. With the cessation of his delight comes cessation of clinging; with the cessation of clinging, cessation of being; with the cessation of being, cessation of birth; with the cessation of birth, ageing and death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief, and despair cease. Such is the cessation of this whole mass of suffering.

On hearing a sound with the ear…On smelling an odour with the nose…On tasting a flavour with the tongue…On touching a tangible with the body…On cognizing a mind-object with the mind, he does not lust after it if it is pleasing; he does not dislike it if it is unpleasing…With the cessation of his delight comes cessation of clinging; with the cessation of clinging, cessation of being; with the cessation of being, cessation of birth; with the cessation of birth, ageing and death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief, and despair cease. Such is the cessation of this whole mass of suffering.
MN 148 wrote:Bhikkhus, dependent on the eye and forms, eye-consciousness arises; the meeting of the three is contact; with contact as condition there arises a feeling felt as pleasant or painful or neither-painful-nor-pleasant. When one is touched by a pleasant feeling, if one does not delight in it, welcome it, and remain holding to it, then the underlying tendency to lust does not lie within one. When one is touched by a painful feeling, if one does not sorrow, grieve and lament, does not weep beating one’s breast and become distraught, then the underlying tendency to aversion does not lie within one. When one is touched by a neither-painful-nor-pleasant feeling, if one understands as it actually is the origination, the disappearance, the gratification, the danger, and the escape in regard to that feeling, then the underlying tendency to ignorance does not lie within one. Bhikkhus, that one shall here and now make an end of suffering by abandoning the underlying tendency to lust for pleasant feeling, by abolishing the underlying tendency to aversion towards painful feeling, by extirpating the underlying tendency to ignorance in regard to neither-painful-nor-pleasant feeling, by abandoning ignorance and arousing true knowledge—this is possible.

“Bhikkhus, dependent on the ear and sounds, ear-consciousness arises…Dependent on the mind and mind-objects, mind-consciousness arises; the meeting of the three is contact; with contact as condition there arises a feeling felt as pleasant or painful or neither-painful-nor-pleasant…Bhikkhus, that one shall here and now make an end of suffering by abandoning the underlying tendency to lust for pleasant feeling…by abandoning ignorance and arousing true knowledge—this is possible.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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chownah
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Re: Let's discuss what exactly is "name and form" in DO

Post by chownah »

Since people can not agree on exactly what DO is it seems unlikely that they will be able to agree on exactly what name and form is in DO.

For some people the idea of name and form in DO can be understood by considering that in one of the DO sutta it says that from name and form as a condition the six sense media arise.....some people say that if one tries to map name and form onto the six sense media one can see that all of the elements of name and all of the elements of form can be successfully mapped onto the six sense media and that each person who can find a mapping which they find adequate will come to their own understanding of what name and form is in DO.
chownah
form
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Re: Let's discuss what exactly is "name and form" in DO

Post by form »

chownah wrote: Thu Oct 29, 2020 2:47 pm Since people can not agree on exactly what DO is it seems unlikely that they will be able to agree on exactly what name and form is in DO.

For some people the idea of name and form in DO can be understood by considering that in one of the DO sutta it says that from name and form as a condition the six sense media arise.....some people say that if one tries to map name and form onto the six sense media one can see that all of the elements of name and all of the elements of form can be successfully mapped onto the six sense media and that each person who can find a mapping which they find adequate will come to their own understanding of what name and form is in DO.
chownah
After I read your post I get this idea. The more we discuss about DO, the more confused we become. :mrgreen:
Srilankaputra
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Re: Let's discuss what exactly is "name and form" in DO

Post by Srilankaputra »

The Buddhas say that form is not the soul.
_Rūpaṃ na jīvanti vadanti buddhā,

Then how does this body manifest?
_Kathaṃ nvayaṃ vindatimaṃ sarīraṃ;

Where do the bones and liver come from?
_Kutassa aṭṭhīyakapiṇḍameti,

And how does one cling on in the womb?”
_Kathaṃ nvayaṃ sajjati gabbharasmin”ti.

“First there’s a drop of coagulate;
_Paṭhamaṃ kalalaṃ hoti,

from there a little bud appears;
_kalalā hoti abbudaṃ;

next it becomes a piece of flesh;
_Abbudā jāyate pesi,

which produces a swelling.
_pesi nibbattatī ghano;

From that swelling the limbs appear,
_Ghanā pasākhā jāyanti,

the head hair, body hair, and teeth.
_kesā lomā nakhāpi ca.

And whatever the mother eats—
_Yañcassa bhuñjatī mātā,

the food and drink that she consumes—
_annaṃ pānañca bhojanaṃ;

nourishes them there,
_Tena so tattha yāpeti,

the person in the mother’s womb.”
_mātukucchigato naro”ti.
https://suttacentral.net/sn10.1/en/sujato

Nama is dhamma other than Rupa, that is supported by Viññana.

Tañhi, bhikkhu, musā yaṃ mosadhammaṃ, taṃ saccaṃ yaṃ amosadhammaṃ nibbānaṃ.

Tasmā evaṃ samannāgato bhikkhu iminā 
paramena saccādhiṭṭhānena samannāgato hoti.

Etañhi, bhikkhu, paramaṃ ariyasaccaṃ yadidaṃ

amosadhammaṃ nibbānaṃ
form
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Joined: Mon Nov 21, 2016 3:23 am

Re: Let's discuss what exactly is "name and form" in DO

Post by form »

The usual two models talked about in DO is a rebirth and a momentary. Could there be another model, in the case of gangbba, and hence the ganghabba model?
pegembara
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Re: Let's discuss what exactly is "name and form" in DO

Post by pegembara »

form wrote: Wed Oct 28, 2020 11:10 am
I believe only only two states are dreamless. Nibanna (permanent) or certain jhanas (temporarily halted). Is there an interpretation of the term Buddha as the awaken one?

Likely name and form will still be present since I am using DO mechanisms and its rules will apply. Six sense doors includes the mind. So when there is only input from the mind which are thoughts/fantasies(conscious or unconscious) will also become "labelled" or "recognised". "Labelled" and "recognition" are linked to perception (according to the suttas when there is feeling, there is perception). Hence the five aggregates are everywhere in DO ever-dynamic mechanism. Tightly clinge to as I &/or mine. Ignorance and impulses served as filters, predisposition and distortion with regards to the ever arising name and form to cause the person to passionately attached to existence.
Have you never "experienced" dreamless sleep before? You close your eyes and the next thing you know when you open your eyes is that it's already morning. Or you went under in the operating theatre and wake up in the ward.

Was consciousness-namarupa present during that intervening time period?
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
pegembara
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Joined: Tue Oct 13, 2009 8:39 am

Re: Let's discuss what exactly is "name and form" in DO

Post by pegembara »

Consciousness and namarupa are two sides of the same coin. They are conjoined(dependently arisen) ... there is no separation between them. In other words, the "world" is not separate from "consciousness".

The separation starts only when there is clinging/upadana. Suffering arises whenever consciousness-namarupa is mistakenly taken as I, mine or myself.
"Is consciousness permanent or impermanent?" — "Impermanent, venerable sir." — "Now is what is impermanent pleasant or painful?" — "Painful, venerable sir." — "Now is what is impermanent, what is painful since subject to change, fit to be regarded thus: 'This is mine, this is I, this is my self'"? — "No, venerable sir."

"So, bhikkhus any kind of form whatever, whether past, future or presently arisen, whether gross or subtle, whether in oneself or external, whether inferior or superior, whether far or near, must with right understanding how it is, be regarded thus: 'This is not mine, this is not I, this is not myself.'

"Bhikkhus, when a noble follower who has heard (the truth) sees thus, he finds estrangement in form, he finds estrangement in feeling, he finds estrangement in perception, he finds estrangement in determinations, he finds estrangement in consciousness.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .nymo.html
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
form
Posts: 1765
Joined: Mon Nov 21, 2016 3:23 am

Re: Let's discuss what exactly is "name and form" in DO

Post by form »

pegembara wrote: Fri Oct 30, 2020 2:03 am
form wrote: Wed Oct 28, 2020 11:10 am
I believe only only two states are dreamless. Nibanna (permanent) or certain jhanas (temporarily halted). Is there an interpretation of the term Buddha as the awaken one?

Likely name and form will still be present since I am using DO mechanisms and its rules will apply. Six sense doors includes the mind. So when there is only input from the mind which are thoughts/fantasies(conscious or unconscious) will also become "labelled" or "recognised". "Labelled" and "recognition" are linked to perception (according to the suttas when there is feeling, there is perception). Hence the five aggregates are everywhere in DO ever-dynamic mechanism. Tightly clinge to as I &/or mine. Ignorance and impulses served as filters, predisposition and distortion with regards to the ever arising name and form to cause the person to passionately attached to existence.
Have you never "experienced" dreamless sleep before? You close your eyes and the next thing you know when you open your eyes is that it's already morning. Or you went under in the operating theatre and wake up in the ward.

Was consciousness-namarupa present during that intervening time period?
Closing the eyes and the next thing one know is tomorrow? Sounds like this normal person is very tired. In this case, I am quite certain the DO is still as normal. Just that the person do not have the attention.

When doing meditator approach, I experience this. I meditate till I am very relax, mind is clear and serene, then I sleep immediately. Sometimes, I may wake up very peacefully, without remembering any dream.

My opinion on your question, DO only completely stop in nibanna. In some Jhanas, it merely temporarily stopped.

If name and form is interpretated as labelling and recogniton, it may stop in certain circumstances. But that does not mean the name and form stop. It might still operate at a more superior level.

All these are my opinions I am trying to express only. And I do think words are not efficient in expressing many complex things for the speaker and the peception of the audience.
pegembara
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Joined: Tue Oct 13, 2009 8:39 am

Re: Let's discuss what exactly is "name and form" in DO

Post by pegembara »

form wrote: Fri Oct 30, 2020 10:06 am Closing the eyes and the next thing one know is tomorrow? Sounds like this normal person is very tired. In this case, I am quite certain the DO is still as normal. Just that the person do not have the attention.
In a dreamless sleep...

Were you conscious in the intervening period?
If not then there is no namarupa as well.

Is it then not true that...
"If one were to pull away one of those sheaves of reeds, the other would fall; if one were to pull away the other, the first one would fall. In the same way, from the cessation of name-&-form comes the cessation of consciousness, from the cessation of consciousness comes the cessation of name-&-form. From the cessation of name-&-form comes the cessation of the six sense media. From the cessation of the six sense media comes the cessation of contact. From the cessation of contact comes the cessation of feeling. From the cessation of feeling comes the cessation of craving. From the cessation of craving comes the cessation of clinging/sustenance. From the cessation of clinging/sustenance comes the cessation of becoming. From the cessation of becoming comes the cessation of birth. From the cessation of birth, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair all cease. Such is the cessation of this entire mass of suffering & stress."

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
When doing meditator approach, I experience this. I meditate till I am very relax, mind is clear and serene, then I sleep immediately. Sometimes, I may wake up very peacefully, without remembering any dream.
That peace is only temporary.

Of course, the whole dukkha thing starts again once you regain consciousness or start to have dreams again.
Why? Because there is no disenchantment, dispassion and lack of clinging to the "world" or namarupa.
If a monk teaches the Dhamma for the sake of disenchantment, dispassion, & cessation with regard to aging & death, he deserves to be called a monk who is a speaker of Dhamma. If he practices for the sake of disenchantment, dispassion, & cessation with regard to aging & death, he deserves to be called a monk who practices the Dhamma in accordance with the Dhamma.[2] If — through disenchantment, dispassion, cessation, and lack of clinging/sustenance with regard to aging & death — he is released, then he deserves to be called a monk who has attained Unbinding in the here-&-now.
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
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