You are not reading carefully my replies.coconut wrote: ↑Wed Oct 28, 2020 4:19 pmYou seem to be riddled with wrong views. I recommend you study the suttas rather than second hand sources.AlexBrains92 wrote: ↑Wed Oct 28, 2020 4:07 pmSorry, no consciousness mentioned. Of course there is, because there is namarupa.
Instead of keeping repeating that no rupa = no namarupa, please, answer my question:
how can there be consciousness without namarupa? For the suttas it's a requirement.
There is consciousness in the formless planes. Consciousness doesn't need FORM to sustain itself, consciousness only needs 3 things to sustain itself
1) Intention
2) Underlying Tendencies
3) Planning
https://suttacentral.net/sn12.38/en/bodhi“Bhikkhus, what one intends, and what one plans, and whatever one has a tendency towards: this becomes a basis for the maintenance of consciousness. When there is a basis there is a support for the establishing of consciousness. When consciousness is established and has come to growth, there is the production of future renewed existence. When there is the production of future renewed existence, future birth, aging-and-death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, displeasure, and despair come to be. Such is the origin of this whole mass of suffering.
“If, bhikkhus, one does not intend, and one does not plan, but one still has a tendency towards something, this becomes a basis for the maintenance of consciousness. When there is a basis, there is a support for the establishing of consciousness…. Such is the origin of this whole mass of suffering.
The plane of "neither perception nor non-perception" is a plane without intention, but beings are still reborn there because they have underlying tendencies
Take the case of the reincarnation where both one’s own and others’ intentions are effective. Those sentient beings pass away from that realm due to both their own and others’ intentions. But sir, in the case of the reincarnation where neither one’s own nor others’ intentions are effective, what kind of gods does this refer to?”
“Sāriputta, it refers to the gods reborn in the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception.”
https://suttacentral.net/an4.171/en/sujato
Even though they have no intention and planning, they're still reborn because of underlying tendencies.
Let's discuss what exactly is "name and form" in DO
- AlexBrains92
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Re: Let's discuss what exactly is "name and form" in DO
«He does not construct even the subtlest apperception with regard
to what is seen, heard or thought; how would one conceptualise
that Brahmin in this world, who does not appropriate a view?
They do not fabricate, they do not prefer, they do not accept any
doctrine; the Brahmin cannot be inferred through virtue or vows,
such a person has gone to the far shore and does not fall back.»
- Snp 4.5 -
Re: Let's discuss what exactly is "name and form" in DO
I have.. Your question is
And I answered you. Consciousness does not require rupa, only nama, the bare minimum consciousness requires is underlying tendencies.how can there be consciousness without namarupa? For the suttas it's a requirement.
Re: Let's discuss what exactly is "name and form" in DO
If DN15 had said this:
"If those qualities, traits, signs, and indicators through which there is a description of the form-group were all absent, would designation-contact be discerned in the name-group?"
"No Venerable Sir!
Then Alex would be right and we would have a massive problem in understanding the immaterial realms. Since it omits this, nama can be allowed to exist without rupa and so the immaterial realms cease to be a problem and become allowable.
"If those qualities, traits, signs, and indicators through which there is a description of the form-group were all absent, would designation-contact be discerned in the name-group?"
"No Venerable Sir!
Then Alex would be right and we would have a massive problem in understanding the immaterial realms. Since it omits this, nama can be allowed to exist without rupa and so the immaterial realms cease to be a problem and become allowable.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
- AlexBrains92
- Posts: 1211
- Joined: Sun Feb 02, 2020 11:25 pm
Re: Let's discuss what exactly is "name and form" in DO
You say this because you believe that you can simply split nama from rupa, as if namarupa were "nama and/or rupa".Ceisiwr wrote: ↑Wed Oct 28, 2020 4:22 pmBecause as the sutta I quoted shows, and DN15 supports, nama does not require rupa and consciousness can exist with just nama and concept as object.AlexBrains92 wrote: ↑Wed Oct 28, 2020 4:18 pmNo way. I've already corrected myself, I wasn't meaning that there's no consciousness in immaterial realm.Ceisiwr wrote: ↑Wed Oct 28, 2020 4:15 pm
If there is no consciousness in the immaterial realms then there is no difference between any of the arupa jhana and nirodha-samāpatti. Only nirodha-samāpatti is without consciousness. Your objections are little more than eel-wriggling. I just told you that consciousness is there because it has nama and concept as its object of cognition. The problem for you is in explaining the immaterial realms and in explaining the difference between them and nirodha-samāpatti.
This is sutta based.
The problem for you is in explaining how there can be consciousness without namarupa, but just with nama.
No, namarupa is namarupa. In DO you always have namarupa, not just nama or just rupa.
Therefore the absence of rupa is in some way compatible with the presence of namarupa.
Last edited by AlexBrains92 on Wed Oct 28, 2020 4:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
«He does not construct even the subtlest apperception with regard
to what is seen, heard or thought; how would one conceptualise
that Brahmin in this world, who does not appropriate a view?
They do not fabricate, they do not prefer, they do not accept any
doctrine; the Brahmin cannot be inferred through virtue or vows,
such a person has gone to the far shore and does not fall back.»
- Snp 4.5 -
Re: Let's discuss what exactly is "name and form" in DO
The problem with the immaterial realms is that those who have attained it have only dropped rupa, not mind. For there to be nibbana you have to drop not just rupa but mind also.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
Re: Let's discuss what exactly is "name and form" in DO
When talking about the human plane and the like, yes. When we get to the immaterial realms there is no rupa. The Buddha was instructing human beings, so it made sense to talk in terms of namarupa since thats how it is in our realm.AlexBrains92 wrote: ↑Wed Oct 28, 2020 4:31 pmYou say this because you believe that you can simply split nama from rupa, as if namarupa were "nama and/or rupa".Ceisiwr wrote: ↑Wed Oct 28, 2020 4:22 pmBecause as the sutta I quoted shows, and DN15 supports, nama does not require rupa and consciousness can exist with just nama and concept as object.AlexBrains92 wrote: ↑Wed Oct 28, 2020 4:18 pm
No way. I've already corrected myself, I wasn't meaning that there's no consciousness in immaterial realm.
The problem for you is in explaining how there can be consciousness without namarupa, but just with nama.
No, namarupa is namarupa. In DO you always have namarupa, not just nama or just rupa.
Therefore the absence of rupa is in some way compatible with the presence of namarupa.
This makes absolutely no sense.Therefore the absence of rupa is in some way compatible with the presence of namarupa.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
Re: Let's discuss what exactly is "name and form" in DO
It's not true. The Buddha said that you can also have only 4 aggregates, as if you're reborn in the formless plane you only have 4 aggregates, even though in many suttas he says 5 aggregates is the problem.AlexBrains92 wrote: ↑Wed Oct 28, 2020 4:31 pmYou say this because you believe that you can simply split nama from rupa, as if namarupa were "nama and/or rupa".Ceisiwr wrote: ↑Wed Oct 28, 2020 4:22 pmBecause as the sutta I quoted shows, and DN15 supports, nama does not require rupa and consciousness can exist with just nama and concept as object.AlexBrains92 wrote: ↑Wed Oct 28, 2020 4:18 pm
No way. I've already corrected myself, I wasn't meaning that there's no consciousness in immaterial realm.
The problem for you is in explaining how there can be consciousness without namarupa, but just with nama.
No, namarupa is namarupa. In DO you always have namarupa, not just nama or just rupa.
The Buddha doesn't put just "Nama" in Dependent Origination because he can't teach to those in the formless plane, so his theory of Dependent Origination is only applicable to those who can hear it, those with the six sense organs, unlike his teachers Uddaka and Alara who now have no bodies and cannot hear the dhamma, thus there is no context or reason in which the Buddha would teach dependent origination without FORM in it.
Do you understand? The Buddha only teaches what is practical, not ideological.
- AlexBrains92
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- Joined: Sun Feb 02, 2020 11:25 pm
Re: Let's discuss what exactly is "name and form" in DO
It makes sense if by 'rupa' alone we mean something different from 'rupa' in 'namarupa'. Again, for Nanananda is form only in name.Ceisiwr wrote: ↑Wed Oct 28, 2020 4:35 pmWhen talking about the human plane and the like, yes. When we get to the immaterial realms there is no rupa. The Buddha was instructing human beings, so it made sense to talk in terms of namarupa since thats how it is in our realm.AlexBrains92 wrote: ↑Wed Oct 28, 2020 4:31 pmYou say this because you believe that you can simply split nama from rupa, as if namarupa were "nama and/or rupa".
No, namarupa is namarupa. In DO you always have namarupa, not just nama or just rupa.
Therefore the absence of rupa is in some way compatible with the presence of namarupa.
This makes absolutely no sense.Therefore the absence of rupa is in some way compatible with the presence of namarupa.
What makes no sense is to believe that DO is valid only in our realm.
«He does not construct even the subtlest apperception with regard
to what is seen, heard or thought; how would one conceptualise
that Brahmin in this world, who does not appropriate a view?
They do not fabricate, they do not prefer, they do not accept any
doctrine; the Brahmin cannot be inferred through virtue or vows,
such a person has gone to the far shore and does not fall back.»
- Snp 4.5 -
Re: Let's discuss what exactly is "name and form" in DO
It is only valid in our realm, no one in the formless plane can hear Dependent Origination, why would he make a theory to help those who cannot hear it?AlexBrains92 wrote: ↑Wed Oct 28, 2020 4:41 pmIt makes sense if by 'rupa' alone we mean something different from 'rupa' in 'namarupa'. Again, for Nanananda is form only in name.Ceisiwr wrote: ↑Wed Oct 28, 2020 4:35 pmWhen talking about the human plane and the like, yes. When we get to the immaterial realms there is no rupa. The Buddha was instructing human beings, so it made sense to talk in terms of namarupa since thats how it is in our realm.AlexBrains92 wrote: ↑Wed Oct 28, 2020 4:31 pm
You say this because you believe that you can simply split nama from rupa, as if namarupa were "nama and/or rupa".
No, namarupa is namarupa. In DO you always have namarupa, not just nama or just rupa.
Therefore the absence of rupa is in some way compatible with the presence of namarupa.
This makes absolutely no sense.Therefore the absence of rupa is in some way compatible with the presence of namarupa.
What makes no sense is to believe that DO is valid only in our realm.
Re: Let's discuss what exactly is "name and form" in DO
Nanananda is very clear that rupa = the 4 great elements, it just for him they are not concrete matter as such but more phenomena. As I said regardless of if they are actual matter or are simply qualities, within the immaterial realm, whatever they are, they are not present. Rupa in namarupa = the 4 great elements and the form derived from them. There is no other definition.AlexBrains92 wrote: ↑Wed Oct 28, 2020 4:41 pmIt makes sense if by 'rupa' alone we mean something different from 'rupa' in 'namarupa'. Again, for Nanananda is form only in name.Ceisiwr wrote: ↑Wed Oct 28, 2020 4:35 pmWhen talking about the human plane and the like, yes. When we get to the immaterial realms there is no rupa. The Buddha was instructing human beings, so it made sense to talk in terms of namarupa since thats how it is in our realm.AlexBrains92 wrote: ↑Wed Oct 28, 2020 4:31 pm
You say this because you believe that you can simply split nama from rupa, as if namarupa were "nama and/or rupa".
No, namarupa is namarupa. In DO you always have namarupa, not just nama or just rupa.
Therefore the absence of rupa is in some way compatible with the presence of namarupa.
This makes absolutely no sense.Therefore the absence of rupa is in some way compatible with the presence of namarupa.
What makes no sense is to believe that DO is valid only in our realm.
There is no experience of rupa here at all, yet there is consciousness and awareness of the concept "space is infinite". There is consciousness, nama and concept without rupa which is entirely possible as per DN15.“They speak of this thing called the ‘dimension of infinite space’. What is the dimension of infinite space? It occurred to me: ‘It’s when a mendicant—going totally beyond perceptions of form, with the ending of perceptions of impingement, not focusing on perceptions of diversity—aware that “space is infinite”, enters and remains in the dimension of infinite space. This is called the dimension of infinite space.’
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
- AlexBrains92
- Posts: 1211
- Joined: Sun Feb 02, 2020 11:25 pm
Re: Let's discuss what exactly is "name and form" in DO
There's a problem with formless spheres: the second is infinite consciousness, the third is infinite nothingness.Ceisiwr wrote: ↑Wed Oct 28, 2020 4:45 pmNanananda is very clear that rupa = the 4 great elements, it just for him they are not concrete matter as such but more phenomena. As I said regardless of if they are actual matter or are simply qualities, within the immaterial realm, whatever they are, they are not present. Rupa in namarupa = the 4 great elements and the form derived from them. There is no other definition.AlexBrains92 wrote: ↑Wed Oct 28, 2020 4:41 pmIt makes sense if by 'rupa' alone we mean something different from 'rupa' in 'namarupa'. Again, for Nanananda is form only in name.Ceisiwr wrote: ↑Wed Oct 28, 2020 4:35 pm
When talking about the human plane and the like, yes. When we get to the immaterial realms there is no rupa. The Buddha was instructing human beings, so it made sense to talk in terms of namarupa since thats how it is in our realm.
This makes absolutely no sense.
What makes no sense is to believe that DO is valid only in our realm.
There is no experience of rupa here at all, yet there is consciousness and awareness of the concept "space is infinite". There is consciousness, nama and concept without rupa which is entirely possible as per DN15.“They speak of this thing called the ‘dimension of infinite space’. What is the dimension of infinite space? It occurred to me: ‘It’s when a mendicant—going totally beyond perceptions of form, with the ending of perceptions of impingement, not focusing on perceptions of diversity—aware that “space is infinite”, enters and remains in the dimension of infinite space. This is called the dimension of infinite space.’
What happened to consciousness?
Right now we are discussing nothing but Brahminic meditation, probably not yet integrated in the Buddha's teaching before his death.
«He does not construct even the subtlest apperception with regard
to what is seen, heard or thought; how would one conceptualise
that Brahmin in this world, who does not appropriate a view?
They do not fabricate, they do not prefer, they do not accept any
doctrine; the Brahmin cannot be inferred through virtue or vows,
such a person has gone to the far shore and does not fall back.»
- Snp 4.5 -
Re: Let's discuss what exactly is "name and form" in DO
There isn't a problem since as with space there is awareness of the concept. Is this where you do the usual thing that many sutta only folks do, simply dismiss texts you don't like as being "late additions" or "distortions"?AlexBrains92 wrote: ↑Wed Oct 28, 2020 5:01 pmThere's a problem with formless spheres: the second is infinite consciousness, the third is infinite nothingness.Ceisiwr wrote: ↑Wed Oct 28, 2020 4:45 pmNanananda is very clear that rupa = the 4 great elements, it just for him they are not concrete matter as such but more phenomena. As I said regardless of if they are actual matter or are simply qualities, within the immaterial realm, whatever they are, they are not present. Rupa in namarupa = the 4 great elements and the form derived from them. There is no other definition.AlexBrains92 wrote: ↑Wed Oct 28, 2020 4:41 pm
It makes sense if by 'rupa' alone we mean something different from 'rupa' in 'namarupa'. Again, for Nanananda is form only in name.
What makes no sense is to believe that DO is valid only in our realm.
There is no experience of rupa here at all, yet there is consciousness and awareness of the concept "space is infinite". There is consciousness, nama and concept without rupa which is entirely possible as per DN15.“They speak of this thing called the ‘dimension of infinite space’. What is the dimension of infinite space? It occurred to me: ‘It’s when a mendicant—going totally beyond perceptions of form, with the ending of perceptions of impingement, not focusing on perceptions of diversity—aware that “space is infinite”, enters and remains in the dimension of infinite space. This is called the dimension of infinite space.’
What happened to consciousness?
Right now we are discussing nothing but Brahminic meditation, probably not yet integrated in the Buddha's teaching before his death.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
- AlexBrains92
- Posts: 1211
- Joined: Sun Feb 02, 2020 11:25 pm
Re: Let's discuss what exactly is "name and form" in DO
It's not about what I like or not, it's about what scholars effectively point outCeisiwr wrote: ↑Wed Oct 28, 2020 5:07 pmThere isn't a problem since as with space there is awareness of the concept. Is this where you do the usual thing that many sutta only folks do, simply dismiss texts you don't like as being "late additions" or "distortions"?AlexBrains92 wrote: ↑Wed Oct 28, 2020 5:01 pmThere's a problem with formless spheres: the second is infinite consciousness, the third is infinite nothingness.Ceisiwr wrote: ↑Wed Oct 28, 2020 4:45 pm
Nanananda is very clear that rupa = the 4 great elements, it just for him they are not concrete matter as such but more phenomena. As I said regardless of if they are actual matter or are simply qualities, within the immaterial realm, whatever they are, they are not present. Rupa in namarupa = the 4 great elements and the form derived from them. There is no other definition.
There is no experience of rupa here at all, yet there is consciousness and awareness of the concept "space is infinite". There is consciousness, nama and concept without rupa which is entirely possible as per DN15.
What happened to consciousness?
Right now we are discussing nothing but Brahminic meditation, probably not yet integrated in the Buddha's teaching before his death.
«He does not construct even the subtlest apperception with regard
to what is seen, heard or thought; how would one conceptualise
that Brahmin in this world, who does not appropriate a view?
They do not fabricate, they do not prefer, they do not accept any
doctrine; the Brahmin cannot be inferred through virtue or vows,
such a person has gone to the far shore and does not fall back.»
- Snp 4.5 -
Re: Let's discuss what exactly is "name and form" in DO
The question you are asking vis-à-vis nāmarūpa in the arūpyadhātu, AlexBrains92, is solved by some non-Vaibhāṣika Sarvāstivādins with "avijñāptirūpa," the "unperceived form." Beings in the arūpyadhātu have bodies comprised of avijñāptirūpa in some of the later Abhidharma treatises of the (Mūla)Sarvāstivādins. In those same systems, beings in the antarabhāva have similar bodies.
Theravāda surely has some other answer for this, I presume that nāma alone can also serve the function of nāmarūpa?
Theravāda surely has some other answer for this, I presume that nāma alone can also serve the function of nāmarūpa?
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
Re: Let's discuss what exactly is "name and form" in DO
SureAlexBrains92 wrote: ↑Wed Oct 28, 2020 5:10 pmIt's not about what I like or not, it's about what scholars effectively point outCeisiwr wrote: ↑Wed Oct 28, 2020 5:07 pmThere isn't a problem since as with space there is awareness of the concept. Is this where you do the usual thing that many sutta only folks do, simply dismiss texts you don't like as being "late additions" or "distortions"?AlexBrains92 wrote: ↑Wed Oct 28, 2020 5:01 pm
There's a problem with formless spheres: the second is infinite consciousness, the third is infinite nothingness.
What happened to consciousness?
Right now we are discussing nothing but Brahminic meditation, probably not yet integrated in the Buddha's teaching before his death.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”