Let's discuss what exactly is "name and form" in DO

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AlexBrains92
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Re: Let's discuss what exactly is "name and form" in DO

Post by AlexBrains92 »

Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Oct 28, 2020 3:32 pm
AlexBrains92 wrote: Wed Oct 28, 2020 3:26 pm
coconut wrote: Wed Oct 28, 2020 3:15 pm


That would be wrong since those in the formless plane have consciousness that is not confronted with form as an object.
'No rupa' implies 'no namarupa'? I don't think so. The suttas say that consciousness needs namarupa to arise, and vice versa.
There is no rupa in the immaterial realms.
It's not 'rupa' as intended in 'namarupa'.
"If appeasement of desires is what is really blissful, 'desirelessness' as the appeasement of all desires would be the Supreme Bliss, and this in fact is what Nibbāna is." (Bhikkhu Kaṭukurunde Ñāṇananda)
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Let's discuss what exactly is "name and form" in DO

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AlexBrains92 wrote: Wed Oct 28, 2020 3:34 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Oct 28, 2020 3:32 pm
AlexBrains92 wrote: Wed Oct 28, 2020 3:26 pm

'No rupa' implies 'no namarupa'? I don't think so. The suttas say that consciousness needs namarupa to arise, and vice versa.
There is no rupa in the immaterial realms.
It's not 'rupa' as intended in 'namarupa'.
Rupa = the 4 great elements and the form derived form them. These do not exist in the immaterial realms. There is no namarupa there, only consciousness, nama and concept.
"Because of attachment to doctrines one approaches and refutes,
For those unattached, how can they dispute?
Not because self or no-self are said to be true,
He has only shaken off all harmful views."


Duṭṭhaṭṭhaka Sutta
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AlexBrains92
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Re: Let's discuss what exactly is "name and form" in DO

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Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Oct 28, 2020 3:37 pm
AlexBrains92 wrote: Wed Oct 28, 2020 3:34 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Oct 28, 2020 3:32 pm

There is no rupa in the immaterial realms.
It's not 'rupa' as intended in 'namarupa'.
Rupa = the 4 great elements and the form derived form them. These do not exist in the immaterial realms. There is no namarupa there, only consciousness, nama and concept.
Bhikkhu Kaṭukurunde Ñāṇananda, from 'Nibbāna Sermon 1':
'Form' in 'name-and-form' is a nominal form. It is a form only in name.
"If appeasement of desires is what is really blissful, 'desirelessness' as the appeasement of all desires would be the Supreme Bliss, and this in fact is what Nibbāna is." (Bhikkhu Kaṭukurunde Ñāṇananda)
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Let's discuss what exactly is "name and form" in DO

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AlexBrains92 wrote: Wed Oct 28, 2020 3:39 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Oct 28, 2020 3:37 pm
AlexBrains92 wrote: Wed Oct 28, 2020 3:34 pm

It's not 'rupa' as intended in 'namarupa'.
Rupa = the 4 great elements and the form derived form them. These do not exist in the immaterial realms. There is no namarupa there, only consciousness, nama and concept.
Bhikkhu Kaṭukurunde Ñāṇananda, from 'Nibbāna Sermon 1':
'Form' in 'name-and-form' is a nominal form. It is a form only in name.
He goes on to say that form = the 4 great elements in namarupa. These do not exist in the immaterial realms.
"Because of attachment to doctrines one approaches and refutes,
For those unattached, how can they dispute?
Not because self or no-self are said to be true,
He has only shaken off all harmful views."


Duṭṭhaṭṭhaka Sutta
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AlexBrains92
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Re: Let's discuss what exactly is "name and form" in DO

Post by AlexBrains92 »

Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Oct 28, 2020 3:41 pm
AlexBrains92 wrote: Wed Oct 28, 2020 3:39 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Oct 28, 2020 3:37 pm

Rupa = the 4 great elements and the form derived form them. These do not exist in the immaterial realms. There is no namarupa there, only consciousness, nama and concept.
Bhikkhu Kaṭukurunde Ñāṇananda, from 'Nibbāna Sermon 1':
'Form' in 'name-and-form' is a nominal form. It is a form only in name.
He goes on to say that form = the 4 great elements in namarupa. These do not exist in the immaterial realms.
The 4 great elements... only in name (in namarupa).
However, tell me, how can there be consciousness without namarupa?
"If appeasement of desires is what is really blissful, 'desirelessness' as the appeasement of all desires would be the Supreme Bliss, and this in fact is what Nibbāna is." (Bhikkhu Kaṭukurunde Ñāṇananda)
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Let's discuss what exactly is "name and form" in DO

Post by Ceisiwr »

AlexBrains92 wrote: Wed Oct 28, 2020 3:44 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Oct 28, 2020 3:41 pm
AlexBrains92 wrote: Wed Oct 28, 2020 3:39 pm

Bhikkhu Kaṭukurunde Ñāṇananda, from 'Nibbāna Sermon 1':
He goes on to say that form = the 4 great elements in namarupa. These do not exist in the immaterial realms.
The 4 great elements... only in name (in namarupa).
However, tell me, how can there be consciousness without namarupa?
Regardless of if they mean literal matter (not my position) or mere sense data/phenomena (my position and Ven. Ñāṇananda's) it stills stands that in the immaterial realms rupa, however you want to define it be it matter or the mere phenomenal experience of "hardness" and resistance etc, does not occur.

There is consciousness, nama and the concept of infinite space.
"Because of attachment to doctrines one approaches and refutes,
For those unattached, how can they dispute?
Not because self or no-self are said to be true,
He has only shaken off all harmful views."


Duṭṭhaṭṭhaka Sutta
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Let's discuss what exactly is "name and form" in DO

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“They speak of this thing called the ‘dimension of infinite space’. What is the dimension of infinite space? It occurred to me: ‘It’s when a mendicant—going totally beyond perceptions of form, with the ending of perceptions of impingement, not focusing on perceptions of diversity—aware that “space is infinite”, enters and remains in the dimension of infinite space. This is called the dimension of infinite space.’
https://suttacentral.net/sn40.5/en/sujato
"Because of attachment to doctrines one approaches and refutes,
For those unattached, how can they dispute?
Not because self or no-self are said to be true,
He has only shaken off all harmful views."


Duṭṭhaṭṭhaka Sutta
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AlexBrains92
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Re: Let's discuss what exactly is "name and form" in DO

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Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Oct 28, 2020 3:51 pm
“They speak of this thing called the ‘dimension of infinite space’. What is the dimension of infinite space? It occurred to me: ‘It’s when a mendicant—going totally beyond perceptions of form, with the ending of perceptions of impingement, not focusing on perceptions of diversity—aware that “space is infinite”, enters and remains in the dimension of infinite space. This is called the dimension of infinite space.’
https://suttacentral.net/sn40.5/en/sujato
No consciousness, here.
You still don't answer my question: how can there be consciousness without namarupa? For the suttas it's a requirement.
"If appeasement of desires is what is really blissful, 'desirelessness' as the appeasement of all desires would be the Supreme Bliss, and this in fact is what Nibbāna is." (Bhikkhu Kaṭukurunde Ñāṇananda)
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Let's discuss what exactly is "name and form" in DO

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AlexBrains92 wrote: Wed Oct 28, 2020 4:00 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Oct 28, 2020 3:51 pm
“They speak of this thing called the ‘dimension of infinite space’. What is the dimension of infinite space? It occurred to me: ‘It’s when a mendicant—going totally beyond perceptions of form, with the ending of perceptions of impingement, not focusing on perceptions of diversity—aware that “space is infinite”, enters and remains in the dimension of infinite space. This is called the dimension of infinite space.’
https://suttacentral.net/sn40.5/en/sujato
No consciousness, here.
You still don't answer my question: how can there be consciousness without namarupa? For the suttas it's a requirement.
If there were no consciousness then it would be nirodha-samāpatti. Consciousness is still active in the immaterial realms.
"Because of attachment to doctrines one approaches and refutes,
For those unattached, how can they dispute?
Not because self or no-self are said to be true,
He has only shaken off all harmful views."


Duṭṭhaṭṭhaka Sutta
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Let's discuss what exactly is "name and form" in DO

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AlexBrains92 wrote: Wed Oct 28, 2020 4:00 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Oct 28, 2020 3:51 pm
“They speak of this thing called the ‘dimension of infinite space’. What is the dimension of infinite space? It occurred to me: ‘It’s when a mendicant—going totally beyond perceptions of form, with the ending of perceptions of impingement, not focusing on perceptions of diversity—aware that “space is infinite”, enters and remains in the dimension of infinite space. This is called the dimension of infinite space.’
https://suttacentral.net/sn40.5/en/sujato
No consciousness, here.
You still don't answer my question: how can there be consciousness without namarupa? For the suttas it's a requirement.
Because consciousness is cognising vedana, sanna, cetana, paññatti etc. All that is missing is rupa.
"Because of attachment to doctrines one approaches and refutes,
For those unattached, how can they dispute?
Not because self or no-self are said to be true,
He has only shaken off all harmful views."


Duṭṭhaṭṭhaka Sutta
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AlexBrains92
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Re: Let's discuss what exactly is "name and form" in DO

Post by AlexBrains92 »

Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Oct 28, 2020 4:02 pm
AlexBrains92 wrote: Wed Oct 28, 2020 4:00 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Oct 28, 2020 3:51 pm

https://suttacentral.net/sn40.5/en/sujato
No consciousness, here.
You still don't answer my question: how can there be consciousness without namarupa? For the suttas it's a requirement.
If there were no consciousness then it would be nirodha-samāpatti. Consciousness is still active in the immaterial realms.
Sorry, no consciousness mentioned. Of course there is, because there is namarupa.
Instead of keeping repeating that no rupa = no namarupa, please, answer my question:
how can there be consciousness without namarupa? For the suttas it's a requirement.
"If appeasement of desires is what is really blissful, 'desirelessness' as the appeasement of all desires would be the Supreme Bliss, and this in fact is what Nibbāna is." (Bhikkhu Kaṭukurunde Ñāṇananda)
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Let's discuss what exactly is "name and form" in DO

Post by Ceisiwr »

AlexBrains92 wrote: Wed Oct 28, 2020 4:07 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Oct 28, 2020 4:02 pm
AlexBrains92 wrote: Wed Oct 28, 2020 4:00 pm

No consciousness, here.
You still don't answer my question: how can there be consciousness without namarupa? For the suttas it's a requirement.
If there were no consciousness then it would be nirodha-samāpatti. Consciousness is still active in the immaterial realms.
Sorry, no consciousness mentioned. Of course there is, because there is namarupa.
Instead of keeping repeating that no rupa = no namarupa, please, answer my question:
how can there be consciousness without namarupa? For the suttas it's a requirement.
If there is no consciousness in the immaterial realms then there is no difference between any of the arupa jhanas and nirodha-samāpatti. Only nirodha-samāpatti is without consciousness. Your objections are little more than eel-wriggling. I just told you that consciousness is there because it has nama and concept as its object of cognition. The problem for you is in explaining the immaterial realms and in explaining the difference between them and nirodha-samāpatti.
For the suttas it's a requirement.
This is sutta based.
"Because of attachment to doctrines one approaches and refutes,
For those unattached, how can they dispute?
Not because self or no-self are said to be true,
He has only shaken off all harmful views."


Duṭṭhaṭṭhaka Sutta
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AlexBrains92
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Re: Let's discuss what exactly is "name and form" in DO

Post by AlexBrains92 »

Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Oct 28, 2020 4:15 pm
AlexBrains92 wrote: Wed Oct 28, 2020 4:07 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Oct 28, 2020 4:02 pm

If there were no consciousness then it would be nirodha-samāpatti. Consciousness is still active in the immaterial realms.
Sorry, no consciousness mentioned. Of course there is, because there is namarupa.
Instead of keeping repeating that no rupa = no namarupa, please, answer my question:
how can there be consciousness without namarupa? For the suttas it's a requirement.
If there is no consciousness in the immaterial realms then there is no difference between any of the arupa jhana and nirodha-samāpatti. Only nirodha-samāpatti is without consciousness. Your objections are little more than eel-wriggling. I just told you that consciousness is there because it has nama and concept as its object of cognition. The problem for you is in explaining the immaterial realms and in explaining the difference between them and nirodha-samāpatti.
For the suttas it's a requirement.
This is sutta based.
No way. I've already corrected myself, I wasn't meaning that there's no consciousness in immaterial realm.
The problem for you is in explaining how there can be consciousness without namarupa, but just with nama.
Last edited by AlexBrains92 on Wed Oct 28, 2020 4:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"If appeasement of desires is what is really blissful, 'desirelessness' as the appeasement of all desires would be the Supreme Bliss, and this in fact is what Nibbāna is." (Bhikkhu Kaṭukurunde Ñāṇananda)
coconut
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Re: Let's discuss what exactly is "name and form" in DO

Post by coconut »

AlexBrains92 wrote: Wed Oct 28, 2020 4:07 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Oct 28, 2020 4:02 pm
AlexBrains92 wrote: Wed Oct 28, 2020 4:00 pm

No consciousness, here.
You still don't answer my question: how can there be consciousness without namarupa? For the suttas it's a requirement.
If there were no consciousness then it would be nirodha-samāpatti. Consciousness is still active in the immaterial realms.
Sorry, no consciousness mentioned. Of course there is, because there is namarupa.
Instead of keeping repeating that no rupa = no namarupa, please, answer my question:
how can there be consciousness without namarupa? For the suttas it's a requirement.
You seem to be riddled with wrong views. I recommend you study the suttas rather than second hand sources.

There is consciousness in the formless planes. Consciousness doesn't need FORM to sustain itself, consciousness only needs 3 things to sustain itself

1) Intention
2) Underlying Tendencies
3) Planning
“Bhikkhus, what one intends, and what one plans, and whatever one has a tendency towards: this becomes a basis for the maintenance of consciousness. When there is a basis there is a support for the establishing of consciousness. When consciousness is established and has come to growth, there is the production of future renewed existence. When there is the production of future renewed existence, future birth, aging-and-death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, displeasure, and despair come to be. Such is the origin of this whole mass of suffering.

“If, bhikkhus, one does not intend, and one does not plan, but one still has a tendency towards something, this becomes a basis for the maintenance of consciousness. When there is a basis, there is a support for the establishing of consciousness…. Such is the origin of this whole mass of suffering.
https://suttacentral.net/sn12.38/en/bodhi

The plane of "neither perception nor non-perception" is a plane without intention, but beings are still reborn there because they have underlying tendencies
Take the case of the reincarnation where both one’s own and others’ intentions are effective. Those sentient beings pass away from that realm due to both their own and others’ intentions. But sir, in the case of the reincarnation where neither one’s own nor others’ intentions are effective, what kind of gods does this refer to?”

“Sāriputta, it refers to the gods reborn in the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception.”

https://suttacentral.net/an4.171/en/sujato

Even though they have no intention and planning, they're still reborn because of underlying tendencies.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Let's discuss what exactly is "name and form" in DO

Post by Ceisiwr »

AlexBrains92 wrote: Wed Oct 28, 2020 4:18 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Oct 28, 2020 4:15 pm
AlexBrains92 wrote: Wed Oct 28, 2020 4:07 pm

Sorry, no consciousness mentioned. Of course there is, because there is namarupa.
Instead of keeping repeating that no rupa = no namarupa, please, answer my question:
how can there be consciousness without namarupa? For the suttas it's a requirement.
If there is no consciousness in the immaterial realms then there is no difference between any of the arupa jhana and nirodha-samāpatti. Only nirodha-samāpatti is without consciousness. Your objections are little more than eel-wriggling. I just told you that consciousness is there because it has nama and concept as its object of cognition. The problem for you is in explaining the immaterial realms and in explaining the difference between them and nirodha-samāpatti.
For the suttas it's a requirement.
This is sutta based.
No way. I've already corrected myself, I wasn't meaning that there's no consciousness in immaterial realm.
The problem for you is in explaining how there can be consciousness without namarupa, but just with nama.
Because as the sutta I quoted shows, and DN15 supports, nama does not require rupa and consciousness can exist with just nama and concept as object.
Last edited by Ceisiwr on Wed Oct 28, 2020 4:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"Because of attachment to doctrines one approaches and refutes,
For those unattached, how can they dispute?
Not because self or no-self are said to be true,
He has only shaken off all harmful views."


Duṭṭhaṭṭhaka Sutta
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