Let's discuss what exactly is "name and form" in DO

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Let's discuss what exactly is "name and form" in DO

Post by Ceisiwr »

Coëmgenu wrote: Wed Oct 28, 2020 5:11 pm The question you are asking vis-à-vis nāmarūpa in the arūpyadhātu, AlexBrains92, is solved by some non-Vaibhāṣika Sarvāstivādins with "avijñāptirūpa," the "unperceived form." Beings in the arūpyadhātu have bodies comprised of avijñāptirūpa in some of the later Abhidharma treatises of the (Mūla)Sarvāstivādins. In those same systems, beings in the antarabhāva have similar bodies.

Theravāda surely has some other answer for this, I presume that nāma alone can also serve the function of nāmarūpa?
As far as I'm aware, no. Rupa in namarupa = the 4 great elements and the form derived from them. These are absent in the immaterial realms. There there is only consciousness, nama and concept. Nama functions but without rupa.
Paññaṃ nappamajjeyya, saccamanurakkheyya, cāgamanubrūheyya, santimeva so sikkheyyā’ti
“One should not neglect wisdom, should preserve truth, cultivate relinquishment and train for peace.”

Dhātuvibhaṅga Sutta
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Coëmgenu
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Re: Let's discuss what exactly is "name and form" in DO

Post by Coëmgenu »

Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Oct 28, 2020 5:16 pm
Coëmgenu wrote: Wed Oct 28, 2020 5:11 pm The question you are asking vis-à-vis nāmarūpa in the arūpyadhātu, AlexBrains92, is solved by some non-Vaibhāṣika Sarvāstivādins with "avijñāptirūpa," the "unperceived form." Beings in the arūpyadhātu have bodies comprised of avijñāptirūpa in some of the later Abhidharma treatises of the (Mūla)Sarvāstivādins. In those same systems, beings in the antarabhāva have similar bodies.

Theravāda surely has some other answer for this, I presume that nāma alone can also serve the function of nāmarūpa?
As far as I'm aware, no. Rupa in namarupa = the 4 great elements and the form derived from them. These are absent in the immaterial realms. There there is only consciousness, nama and concept.
What I mean is that I imagine that in Theravāda in the formless realms nāma alone must only condition one sense base, the mind, then contact etc., versus nāmarūpa conditioning six sense bases. I am assuming. I don't know.
Then, the monks sang this gāthā:

These bodies are like foam.
Them being frail, who can rejoice in them?
The Buddha attained the vajra-body.
Still, it becomes inconstant and rots.
The many Buddhas are vajra-entities.
All are also subject to inconstancy.
Quickly ended, like melting snow --
how could things be different?

The Buddha passed into parinirvāṇa afterward.

(T1.27b10 Mahāparinirvāṇasūtra DĀ 2)
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Coëmgenu
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Re: Let's discuss what exactly is "name and form" in DO

Post by Coëmgenu »

Also, beings in the arūpyadhātu are missing aggregates, another issue. Five is no longer universal to sattvas.
Then, the monks sang this gāthā:

These bodies are like foam.
Them being frail, who can rejoice in them?
The Buddha attained the vajra-body.
Still, it becomes inconstant and rots.
The many Buddhas are vajra-entities.
All are also subject to inconstancy.
Quickly ended, like melting snow --
how could things be different?

The Buddha passed into parinirvāṇa afterward.

(T1.27b10 Mahāparinirvāṇasūtra DĀ 2)
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Let's discuss what exactly is "name and form" in DO

Post by Ceisiwr »

Coëmgenu wrote: Wed Oct 28, 2020 5:21 pm Also, beings in the arūpyadhātu are missing aggregates, another issue. Five is no longer universal to sattvas.
Was it ever claimed that 5 is universal to all beings?
Paññaṃ nappamajjeyya, saccamanurakkheyya, cāgamanubrūheyya, santimeva so sikkheyyā’ti
“One should not neglect wisdom, should preserve truth, cultivate relinquishment and train for peace.”

Dhātuvibhaṅga Sutta
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Coëmgenu
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Re: Let's discuss what exactly is "name and form" in DO

Post by Coëmgenu »

Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Oct 28, 2020 5:24 pm
Coëmgenu wrote: Wed Oct 28, 2020 5:21 pm Also, beings in the arūpyadhātu are missing aggregates, another issue. Five is no longer universal to sattvas.
Was it ever claimed that 5 is universal to all beings?
Yes, by Buddhists all over the place, but not by the Buddha oddly enough.
Then, the monks sang this gāthā:

These bodies are like foam.
Them being frail, who can rejoice in them?
The Buddha attained the vajra-body.
Still, it becomes inconstant and rots.
The many Buddhas are vajra-entities.
All are also subject to inconstancy.
Quickly ended, like melting snow --
how could things be different?

The Buddha passed into parinirvāṇa afterward.

(T1.27b10 Mahāparinirvāṇasūtra DĀ 2)
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Let's discuss what exactly is "name and form" in DO

Post by Ceisiwr »

Coëmgenu wrote: Wed Oct 28, 2020 5:26 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Oct 28, 2020 5:24 pm
Coëmgenu wrote: Wed Oct 28, 2020 5:21 pm Also, beings in the arūpyadhātu are missing aggregates, another issue. Five is no longer universal to sattvas.
Was it ever claimed that 5 is universal to all beings?
Yes, by Buddhists all over the place, but not by the Buddha oddly enough.
Not by Theravadins.
Paññaṃ nappamajjeyya, saccamanurakkheyya, cāgamanubrūheyya, santimeva so sikkheyyā’ti
“One should not neglect wisdom, should preserve truth, cultivate relinquishment and train for peace.”

Dhātuvibhaṅga Sutta
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Coëmgenu
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Re: Let's discuss what exactly is "name and form" in DO

Post by Coëmgenu »

I think I can find a plethora of Theravādins saying that all life has five aggregates. Forgetting to consider the arūpyadhātu is very common. I'll go find some. It should IMO be taken as a mistake by these people moreso than a commitment to heterodoxy.
Then, the monks sang this gāthā:

These bodies are like foam.
Them being frail, who can rejoice in them?
The Buddha attained the vajra-body.
Still, it becomes inconstant and rots.
The many Buddhas are vajra-entities.
All are also subject to inconstancy.
Quickly ended, like melting snow --
how could things be different?

The Buddha passed into parinirvāṇa afterward.

(T1.27b10 Mahāparinirvāṇasūtra DĀ 2)
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Let's discuss what exactly is "name and form" in DO

Post by Ceisiwr »

18.4.4. (The Plane Of) The Formless Element
At the moment of conception in the formless element, how many aggregates are apparent; See section 991. how many (types of) consciousness are apparent?

At the moment of conception in the formless element four aggregates are apparent; two sense-bases are apparent; two elements are apparent; one truth is apparent; eight faculties are apparent; three roots are apparent; three nutrients are apparent; one (type of) contact is apparent; one (type of) feeling, one (type of) perception, one (type of) volition, one (type of) consciousness is apparent.

At the moment of conception in the formless element, which four aggregates are apparent? The aggregate of feeling, aggregate of perception, aggregate of volitional activities, aggregate of consciousness. At the moment of conception in the formless element these four aggregates are apparent. (1)

At the moment of conception in the formless element, which two sense-bases are apparent? Mind sense-base, ideational sense-base. At the moment of conception in the formless element these two sense-bases are apparent. (2)

At the moment of conception in the formless element, which two elements are apparent? Mind-consciousness-element, ideational element. At the moment of conception in the formless element these two elements are apparent. (3)

At the moment of conception in the formless element, which single truth is apparent? The truth of suffering. At the moment of conception in the formless element this single truth is apparent. (4)

At the moment of conception in the formless element, which eight faculties are apparent? The faculty of mind, faculty of vital principle, faculty of indifference, faculty of confidence, faculty of energy, faculty of mindfulness, faculty of samādhi, faculty of wisdom. At the moment of conception in the formless element these eight faculties are apparent. (5)

At the moment of conception in the formless element, which three roots are apparent? The resultant root of absence of greed, the resultant root of absence of hatred, the resultant root of absence of delusion. At the moment of conception in the formless element these three roots are apparent. (6)

At the moment of conception in the formless element, which three nutrients are apparent? The nutrient of contact, the nutrient of volition, the nutrient of consciousness. At the moment of conception in the formless element these three nutrients are apparent. (7)

At the moment of conception in the formless element, which single (type of) contact is apparent? Mind-consciousness-element contact. At the moment of conception in the formless element this single (type of) contact is apparent. (8)

At the moment of conception in the formless element, which single (type of) feeling, single (type of) perception, single (type of) volition, single (type of) consciousness is apparent? Mind-consciousness-element. At the moment of conception in the formless element this single (type of) consciousness is apparent. (12)
https://suttacentral.net/vb18/en/thittila
Paññaṃ nappamajjeyya, saccamanurakkheyya, cāgamanubrūheyya, santimeva so sikkheyyā’ti
“One should not neglect wisdom, should preserve truth, cultivate relinquishment and train for peace.”

Dhātuvibhaṅga Sutta
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Let's discuss what exactly is "name and form" in DO

Post by Ceisiwr »

Coëmgenu wrote: Wed Oct 28, 2020 5:30 pm I think I can find a plethora of Theravādins saying that all life has five aggregates. Forgetting to consider the arūpyadhātu is very common. I'll go find some. It should IMO be taken as a mistake by these people moreso than a commitment to heterodoxy.
By that comment I meant Theravada as put forward by the Theras, as shown above. People who identify as Theravadin of course make mistakes in thinking there are only 5 aggregates for all beings.
Paññaṃ nappamajjeyya, saccamanurakkheyya, cāgamanubrūheyya, santimeva so sikkheyyā’ti
“One should not neglect wisdom, should preserve truth, cultivate relinquishment and train for peace.”

Dhātuvibhaṅga Sutta
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Re: Let's discuss what exactly is "name and form" in DO

Post by AlexBrains92 »

Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Oct 28, 2020 5:31 pm
18.4.4. (The Plane Of) The Formless Element
At the moment of conception in the formless element, how many aggregates are apparent; See section 991. how many (types of) consciousness are apparent?

At the moment of conception in the formless element four aggregates are apparent; two sense-bases are apparent; two elements are apparent; one truth is apparent; eight faculties are apparent; three roots are apparent; three nutrients are apparent; one (type of) contact is apparent; one (type of) feeling, one (type of) perception, one (type of) volition, one (type of) consciousness is apparent.

At the moment of conception in the formless element, which four aggregates are apparent? The aggregate of feeling, aggregate of perception, aggregate of volitional activities, aggregate of consciousness. At the moment of conception in the formless element these four aggregates are apparent. (1)

At the moment of conception in the formless element, which two sense-bases are apparent? Mind sense-base, ideational sense-base. At the moment of conception in the formless element these two sense-bases are apparent. (2)

At the moment of conception in the formless element, which two elements are apparent? Mind-consciousness-element, ideational element. At the moment of conception in the formless element these two elements are apparent. (3)

At the moment of conception in the formless element, which single truth is apparent? The truth of suffering. At the moment of conception in the formless element this single truth is apparent. (4)

At the moment of conception in the formless element, which eight faculties are apparent? The faculty of mind, faculty of vital principle, faculty of indifference, faculty of confidence, faculty of energy, faculty of mindfulness, faculty of samādhi, faculty of wisdom. At the moment of conception in the formless element these eight faculties are apparent. (5)

At the moment of conception in the formless element, which three roots are apparent? The resultant root of absence of greed, the resultant root of absence of hatred, the resultant root of absence of delusion. At the moment of conception in the formless element these three roots are apparent. (6)

At the moment of conception in the formless element, which three nutrients are apparent? The nutrient of contact, the nutrient of volition, the nutrient of consciousness. At the moment of conception in the formless element these three nutrients are apparent. (7)

At the moment of conception in the formless element, which single (type of) contact is apparent? Mind-consciousness-element contact. At the moment of conception in the formless element this single (type of) contact is apparent. (8)

At the moment of conception in the formless element, which single (type of) feeling, single (type of) perception, single (type of) volition, single (type of) consciousness is apparent? Mind-consciousness-element. At the moment of conception in the formless element this single (type of) consciousness is apparent. (12)
https://suttacentral.net/vb18/en/thittila
"Ideational sense-base"? What is it?
"If appeasement of desires is what is really blissful, 'desirelessness' as the appeasement of all desires would be the Supreme Bliss, and this in fact is what Nibbāna is." (Bhikkhu Kaṭukurunde Ñāṇananda)
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Let's discuss what exactly is "name and form" in DO

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AlexBrains92 wrote: Wed Oct 28, 2020 6:14 pm
"Ideational sense-base"? What is it?
Objects solely cognised at the mind base, like concepts or vedana:
Therein what are the twelve sense-bases in the element of desire? Eye sense-base, visible sense-base, ear sense-base, audible sense-base, nose sense-base, odorous sense-base, tongue sense-base, sapid sense-base, body sense-base, tangible sense-base, mind sense-base, ideational sense-base. These are called the twelve sense-bases in the element of desire. (2)
https://suttacentral.net/vb18/en/thittila
Paññaṃ nappamajjeyya, saccamanurakkheyya, cāgamanubrūheyya, santimeva so sikkheyyā’ti
“One should not neglect wisdom, should preserve truth, cultivate relinquishment and train for peace.”

Dhātuvibhaṅga Sutta
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Re: Let's discuss what exactly is "name and form" in DO

Post by AlexBrains92 »

Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Oct 28, 2020 6:35 pm
AlexBrains92 wrote: Wed Oct 28, 2020 6:14 pm
"Ideational sense-base"? What is it?
Objects solely cognised at the mind base, like concepts:
Therein what are the twelve sense-bases in the element of desire? Eye sense-base, visible sense-base, ear sense-base, audible sense-base, nose sense-base, odorous sense-base, tongue sense-base, sapid sense-base, body sense-base, tangible sense-base, mind sense-base, ideational sense-base. These are called the twelve sense-bases in the element of desire. (2)
https://suttacentral.net/vb18/en/thittila
Aha! :)
Therein what is ideational sense-base? The aggregate of feeling, aggregate of perception, aggregate of volitional activities and that invisible non-impingent form included in the ideational sense-base; the unconditioned element.
https://suttacentral.net/vb2/en/thittila
"If appeasement of desires is what is really blissful, 'desirelessness' as the appeasement of all desires would be the Supreme Bliss, and this in fact is what Nibbāna is." (Bhikkhu Kaṭukurunde Ñāṇananda)
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Re: Let's discuss what exactly is "name and form" in DO

Post by Ceisiwr »

AlexBrains92 wrote: Wed Oct 28, 2020 6:38 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Oct 28, 2020 6:35 pm
AlexBrains92 wrote: Wed Oct 28, 2020 6:14 pm
"Ideational sense-base"? What is it?
Objects solely cognised at the mind base, like concepts:
Therein what are the twelve sense-bases in the element of desire? Eye sense-base, visible sense-base, ear sense-base, audible sense-base, nose sense-base, odorous sense-base, tongue sense-base, sapid sense-base, body sense-base, tangible sense-base, mind sense-base, ideational sense-base. These are called the twelve sense-bases in the element of desire. (2)
https://suttacentral.net/vb18/en/thittila
Aha! :)
Therein what is ideational sense-base? The aggregate of feeling, aggregate of perception, aggregate of volitional activities and that invisible non-impingent form included in the ideational sense-base; the unconditioned element.
https://suttacentral.net/vb2/en/thittila
Since you are now dealing with Abhidhamma texts you should now that that isn't the same as form in namarupa. The Abhidhamma treats "space" as a concept not an ultimate dhamma, since if it were an ultimate dhamma it would be unconditioned like Nibbana. As per the sutta then in the immaterial realm one is only aware of the concept of "space" and not the 4 elements of rupa in namarupa:
1.4. Definition of Mind and Bodily Form
Herein, what is ‘with consciousness as condition: mind and bodily form?’

There is mind, there is bodily form.

Herein, what is ‘mind?’

(There is) the feeling constituent, the perception constituent, the (volitional) processes constituent.

This is said to be ‘mind’.

Herein, what is ‘bodily form?’

(There are) the four great entities, and the bodily form attached to the four great entities, this is said to be ‘bodily form’.

Thus, this is mind and this is bodily form.

This is said to be ‘with consciousness as condition: mind and bodily form’.
https://suttacentral.net/vb6/en/anandajoti
Paññaṃ nappamajjeyya, saccamanurakkheyya, cāgamanubrūheyya, santimeva so sikkheyyā’ti
“One should not neglect wisdom, should preserve truth, cultivate relinquishment and train for peace.”

Dhātuvibhaṅga Sutta
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Let's discuss what exactly is "name and form" in DO

Post by Ceisiwr »

The explanation being that we get the concept of "space" from the delineation of matter. To get to the base of infinite space one does away with rupa but retains the concept of "space" which becomes the object of meditation and so citta and nama. This of course being fully in line with the explanation we find in the suttas, about surmounting the perception of forms and impingement contact but retaining awareness of the concept "space is infinite".
Paññaṃ nappamajjeyya, saccamanurakkheyya, cāgamanubrūheyya, santimeva so sikkheyyā’ti
“One should not neglect wisdom, should preserve truth, cultivate relinquishment and train for peace.”

Dhātuvibhaṅga Sutta
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AlexBrains92
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Re: Let's discuss what exactly is "name and form" in DO

Post by AlexBrains92 »

Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Oct 28, 2020 6:48 pm
AlexBrains92 wrote: Wed Oct 28, 2020 6:38 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Oct 28, 2020 6:35 pm

Objects solely cognised at the mind base, like concepts:



https://suttacentral.net/vb18/en/thittila
Aha! :)
Therein what is ideational sense-base? The aggregate of feeling, aggregate of perception, aggregate of volitional activities and that invisible non-impingent form included in the ideational sense-base; the unconditioned element.
https://suttacentral.net/vb2/en/thittila
Since you are now dealing with Abhidhamma texts you should now that that isn't the same as form in namarupa. The Abhidhamma treats "space" as a concept not an ultimate dhamma, since if it were an ultimate dhamma it would be unconditioned like Nibbana. As per the sutta then in the immaterial realm one is only aware of the concept of "space" and not the 4 elements of rupa in namarupa:
1.4. Definition of Mind and Bodily Form
Herein, what is ‘with consciousness as condition: mind and bodily form?’

There is mind, there is bodily form.

Herein, what is ‘mind?’

(There is) the feeling constituent, the perception constituent, the (volitional) processes constituent.

This is said to be ‘mind’.

Herein, what is ‘bodily form?’

(There are) the four great entities, and the bodily form attached to the four great entities, this is said to be ‘bodily form’.

Thus, this is mind and this is bodily form.

This is said to be ‘with consciousness as condition: mind and bodily form’.
https://suttacentral.net/vb6/en/anandajoti
I've spent the last few hours saying that rupa doesn't always mean the same thing :roll:

However, you just wrote "since if it were a dhamma it would be unconditioned like Nibbana"...
are you suggesting that a dhamma like citta is unconditioned like Nibbana? :popcorn:
"If appeasement of desires is what is really blissful, 'desirelessness' as the appeasement of all desires would be the Supreme Bliss, and this in fact is what Nibbāna is." (Bhikkhu Kaṭukurunde Ñāṇananda)
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