What is the difference between five aggregate and Nama-rupa?

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SarathW
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What is the difference between five aggregate and Nama-rupa?

Post by SarathW »

What is the difference between the five aggregate and Nama-rupa?

The five aggregate :
Rupa,Vedana,Sanna,Sankhara,Vinnana

Nama-rupa:
"And what is name-&-form? Feeling, perception, intention, contact, & attention: This is called name. The four great elements, and the form dependent on the four great elements: This is called form. This name & this form are called name-&-form.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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Mahabrahma
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Re: What is the difference between five aggregate and Nama-rupa?

Post by Mahabrahma »

What interaction is there with name and form once the five aggrigates are extinguished, "blown-out" in Nibbana?
form
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Re: What is the difference between five aggregate and Nama-rupa?

Post by form »

Mahabrahma wrote: Wed Oct 28, 2020 10:14 am What interaction is there with name and form once the five aggrigates are extinguished, "blown-out" in Nibbana?
Should be no more interaction as DO chain has been broken.
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DooDoot
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Re: What is the difference between five aggregate and Nama-rupa?

Post by DooDoot »

contact & attention

name-and-form is the cause and condition for the manifestation of the consciousness aggregate - SN 22.82
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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AlexBrains92
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Re: What is the difference between five aggregate and Nama-rupa?

Post by AlexBrains92 »

DooDoot wrote: Wed Oct 28, 2020 11:15 am contact & attention
:thumbsup:
DooDoot wrote: Wed Oct 28, 2020 11:15 am name-and-form is the cause and condition for the manifestation of the consciousness aggregate - SN 22.82
And viceversa.
"If appeasement of desires is what is really blissful, 'desirelessness' as the appeasement of all desires would be the Supreme Bliss, and this in fact is what Nibbāna is." (Bhikkhu Kaṭukurunde Ñāṇananda)
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Re: What is the difference between five aggregate and Nama-rupa?

Post by coconut »

They're the same, the key thing to understand is that intention = sankhara as intention is the nutriment for consciousness. The path is removing activity and intention until you can see the cause of ignorance (3 poisons), remove the ignorance, and then you can have intention without ignorance. Anapanasati is how one tranquilizes activity.
hikkhus, what one intends, and what one plans, and whatever one has a tendency towards: this becomes a basis for the maintenance of consciousness. When there is a basis there is a support for the establishing of consciousness. When consciousness is established and has come to growth, there is the production of future renewed existence. When there is the production of future renewed existence, future birth, aging-and-death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, displeasure, and despair come to be. Such is the origin of this whole mass of suffering.
https://suttacentral.net/sn12.38/en/bodhi
“Mendicants, as long as there’s a body, the intention that gives rise to bodily action causes pleasure and pain to arise in oneself. As long as there’s a voice, the intention that gives rise to verbal action causes pleasure and pain to arise in oneself. As long as there’s a mind, the intention that gives rise to mental action causes pleasure and pain to arise in oneself. But these only apply when conditioned by ignorance.

By oneself one makes the choice that gives rise to bodily, verbal, and mental action, conditioned by which that pleasure and pain arise in oneself. Or else others make the choice … One consciously makes the choice … Or else one unconsciously makes the choice …
https://suttacentral.net/an4.171/en/sujato
"Monks, intention for forms is inconstant, changeable, alterable. Intention for sounds... Intention for smells... Intention for tastes... Intention for tactile sensations... Intention for ideas is inconstant, changeable, alterable.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
“And what, bhikkhus, are volitional formations? There are these six classes of volition: volition regarding forms … volition regarding mental phenomena. This is called volitional formations. With the arising of contact there is the arising of volitional formations. With the cessation of contact there is the cessation of volitional formations. This Noble Eightfold Path is the way leading to the cessation of volitional formations; that is, right view … right concentration.
https://suttacentral.net/sn22.57/en/bodhi
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Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta
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Re: What is the difference between five aggregate and Nama-rupa?

Post by Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta »

A way of understanding them is:
  • there's no difference; just the same.
:heart:
.


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SarathW
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Re: What is the difference between five aggregate and Nama-rupa?

Post by SarathW »

Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta wrote: Wed Oct 28, 2020 3:23 pm A way of understanding them is:
  • there's no difference; just the same.
:heart:
Not possible.
It appears that the Five Aggregate explains the total being.
However, Nama-rupa is only a fraction of the Dependent Origination.
It seems Nama-rupa is a subset of Five Aggregate.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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DooDoot
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Re: What is the difference between five aggregate and Nama-rupa?

Post by DooDoot »

AlexBrains92 wrote: Wed Oct 28, 2020 12:02 pm And viceversa.
No. Nāmarūpaṃ hetu in SN 22.82 may not necessarily mean nāmarūpaṃ pacaya in SN 12.65 & 67.
Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta wrote: Wed Oct 28, 2020 3:23 pm
  • there's no difference; just the same.
No.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati
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AlexBrains92
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Re: What is the difference between five aggregate and Nama-rupa?

Post by AlexBrains92 »

DooDoot wrote: Wed Oct 28, 2020 9:20 pm No. Nāmarūpaṃ hetu in SN 22.82 may not necessarily mean nāmarūpaṃ pacaya in SN 12.65 & 67.
I think it does, the context is the same (DO).
"If appeasement of desires is what is really blissful, 'desirelessness' as the appeasement of all desires would be the Supreme Bliss, and this in fact is what Nibbāna is." (Bhikkhu Kaṭukurunde Ñāṇananda)
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DooDoot
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Re: What is the difference between five aggregate and Nama-rupa?

Post by DooDoot »

AlexBrains92 wrote: Wed Oct 28, 2020 9:56 pm
DooDoot wrote: Wed Oct 28, 2020 9:20 pm No. Nāmarūpaṃ hetu in SN 22.82 may not necessarily mean nāmarūpaṃ pacaya in SN 12.65 & 67.
I think it does, the context is the same (DO).
Sorry but it appears not. The Pali word "hetu" is not necessarily a synonym for the word "paccaya". This has been discussed often; including recently by Assaji, here.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati
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AlexBrains92
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Re: What is the difference between five aggregate and Nama-rupa?

Post by AlexBrains92 »

DooDoot wrote: Wed Oct 28, 2020 10:03 pm
AlexBrains92 wrote: Wed Oct 28, 2020 9:56 pm
DooDoot wrote: Wed Oct 28, 2020 9:20 pm No. Nāmarūpaṃ hetu in SN 22.82 may not necessarily mean nāmarūpaṃ pacaya in SN 12.65 & 67.
I think it does, the context is the same (DO).
Sorry but it appears not. The Pali word "hetu" is not necessarily a synonym for the word "paccaya". This has been discussed often; including recently by Assaji, here.
I didn't say that they are synonyms, but that the context is the same. Not DO in its common formulation, but still DO in broad sense.
Cause and condition, you too used them together in your first reply, and in that discussion you also say:
DooDoot wrote: Tue Sep 22, 2020 11:50 am Distinct; even though the two terms are often used together. Example, nāmarūpaṃ hetu, nāmarūpaṃ paccayo viññāṇakkhandhassa paññāpanāyā (SN 22.82).
Last edited by AlexBrains92 on Wed Oct 28, 2020 10:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"If appeasement of desires is what is really blissful, 'desirelessness' as the appeasement of all desires would be the Supreme Bliss, and this in fact is what Nibbāna is." (Bhikkhu Kaṭukurunde Ñāṇananda)
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DooDoot
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Re: What is the difference between five aggregate and Nama-rupa?

Post by DooDoot »

AlexBrains92 wrote: Wed Oct 28, 2020 10:11 pm I didn't say that they are synonyms, but that the context is the same.
The above appears to be blasphemy. The Buddha did not use the word "hetu" in dependent origination.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati
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AlexBrains92
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Re: What is the difference between five aggregate and Nama-rupa?

Post by AlexBrains92 »

DooDoot wrote: Wed Oct 28, 2020 10:12 pm
AlexBrains92 wrote: Wed Oct 28, 2020 10:11 pm I didn't say that they are synonyms, but that the context is the same.
The above appears to be blasphemy. The Buddha did not use the word "hetu" in dependent origination.
Not in its common formulation, but when we read that something is cause and condition for another thing, that is actually a dependent origination :shock:
"If appeasement of desires is what is really blissful, 'desirelessness' as the appeasement of all desires would be the Supreme Bliss, and this in fact is what Nibbāna is." (Bhikkhu Kaṭukurunde Ñāṇananda)
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Re: What is the difference between five aggregate and Nama-rupa?

Post by Coëmgenu »

AlexBrains92 wrote: Wed Oct 28, 2020 10:19 pm
DooDoot wrote: Wed Oct 28, 2020 10:12 pm
AlexBrains92 wrote: Wed Oct 28, 2020 10:11 pm I didn't say that they are synonyms, but that the context is the same.
The above appears to be blasphemy. The Buddha did not use the word "hetu" in dependent origination.
Not in its common formulation, but when we read that something is cause and condition for another thing, that is actually a dependent origination :shock:
When you say "and vice-versa," are you sure you don't mean DN 15, which I don't believe DooDoot counts as scripture?
The thus come thus gone,
who has neither came nor went,
enthroned on men’s breath,

like the still turtle,
withdraws six appendages
and is clothed in light --

illuminating
the unilluminated
with three shining cures.
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