What is the difference between five aggregate and Nama-rupa?

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AlexBrains92
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Re: What is the difference between five aggregate and Nama-rupa?

Post by AlexBrains92 »

Coëmgenu wrote: Wed Oct 28, 2020 10:30 pm
AlexBrains92 wrote: Wed Oct 28, 2020 10:19 pm
DooDoot wrote: Wed Oct 28, 2020 10:12 pm
The above appears to be blasphemy. The Buddha did not use the word "hetu" in dependent origination.
Not in its common formulation, but when we read that something is cause and condition for another thing, that is actually a dependent origination :shock:
When you say "and vice-versa," are you sure you don't mean DN 15, which I don't believe DooDoot counts as scripture?
DN 15, right. Why he doesn't accept it?
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Re: What is the difference between five aggregate and Nama-rupa?

Post by Coëmgenu »

I don't want to speak for him. Some are of the opinion that all or most or substantial bits of DN/DĀ are later scripture of a less definitive nature designed to either a) convert Brahmins, or b) cater to them by mixing the Buddhadharma with Brahminism. But we'll let DooDoot speak for himself.
The thus come thus gone,
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AlexBrains92
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Re: What is the difference between five aggregate and Nama-rupa?

Post by AlexBrains92 »

Coëmgenu wrote: Wed Oct 28, 2020 10:47 pm I don't want to speak for him. Some are of the opinion that all or most or substantial bits of DN/DĀ are later scripture of a less definitive nature designed to either a) convert Brahmins, or b) cater to them by mixing the Buddhadharma with Brahminism. But we'll let DooDoot speak for himself.
It can be true. However I think that the mutuality between namarupa and vinnana can be inferred from the SN too.
"If appeasement of desires is what is really blissful, 'desirelessness' as the appeasement of all desires would be the Supreme Bliss, and this in fact is what Nibbāna is." (Bhikkhu Kaṭukurunde Ñāṇananda)
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Re: What is the difference between five aggregate and Nama-rupa?

Post by Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta »

SarathW wrote: Wed Oct 28, 2020 9:12 pm
Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta wrote: Wed Oct 28, 2020 3:23 pm A way of understanding them is:
  • there's no difference; just the same.
:heart:
Not possible.
It appears that the Five Aggregate explains the total being.
However, Nama-rupa is only a fraction of the Dependent Origination.
It seems Nama-rupa is a subset of Five Aggregate.



Extremely Possible. :smile:



On one hand:
  • ... it is constituted by mental and material forces (nāma-rūpa), which are known more specifically as the “five aggregates” (pañcakkhandha).

    A Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma: ... Bhikkhu Bodhi


On the other hand: :thumbsup:
  • " The body and mind together are referred to as nāma-rūpa (name and form) or by the term, pañca-khandha (five aggregates). "

    from ~ Dhamma for Social Renewal: A Collection of Talks (by Buddhadasa Bhikkhu)
:heart:
.


🅢🅐🅑🅑🅔 🅓🅗🅐🅜🅜🅐 🅐🅝🅐🅣🅣🅐

Self ...
  • "an entirely and perfectly foolish idea" :D ~ MN22
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Re: What is the difference between five aggregate and Nama-rupa?

Post by DooDoot »

Coëmgenu wrote: Wed Oct 28, 2020 10:30 pm DN 15
If you understand the principles of Buddha-Dhamma, you would have conviction DN 15 is not Buddha Vaca.
Coëmgenu wrote: Wed Oct 28, 2020 10:47 pm Some are of the opinion that all or most or substantial bits of DN/DĀ are later scripture of a less definitive nature designed to either a) convert Brahmins, or b) cater to them by mixing the Buddhadharma with Brahminism.
:goodpost:
AlexBrains92 wrote: Wed Oct 28, 2020 10:44 pm DN 15, right. Why he doesn't accept it?
You can start a topic comparing each condition in DN 15 to the conditions in MN 9 & SN 12.2. :reading:
AlexBrains92 wrote: Wed Oct 28, 2020 10:19 pm but when we read that something is cause and condition for another thing, that is actually a dependent origination
Sorry but its not. You are speaking in generalisations. Not all causality is dependent origination. You are sounding like Nargajuna. :smile:
Last edited by DooDoot on Thu Oct 29, 2020 2:18 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: What is the difference between five aggregate and Nama-rupa?

Post by DooDoot »

Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta wrote: Thu Oct 29, 2020 12:50 am
  • " The body and mind together are referred to as nāma-rūpa (name and form) or by the term, pañca-khandha (five aggregates). "

    from ~ Dhamma for Social Renewal: A Collection of Talks (by Buddhadasa Bhikkhu)
It is best to not misrepresent Buddhadasa Bhikkhu simply because he gave a talk to puthujjana about Social Renewal.
What is mentality/materiality? In the Scriptures the Buddha said that feeling, perception, intention, contact and attention were mentality. The four great elements and the secondary derived phenomenawere materiality. This is not a matter of dispute. Everyone teaches that flesh, muscle, blood and winds comprise the four great physical elements. Various conditions and phenomena dependent on the four elements, such as beauty, ugliness, femininity, virility and so on, are derived materiality. Both together are called materiality. Mentality/materiality gives rise to the six sense bases.

With consciousness as a condition, mentality/materiality arises

Because there is no mindfulness, this ear consciousness gives rise to mentality/materiality, i.e., her body and mind are newly primed to give rise to the sense bases which will function in a way that leads to suffering

When the body/mind change it means that the eye, ear, nose, tongue, body and mind also change. They become "crazy" :rolleye: sense spheres.

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AlexBrains92
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Re: What is the difference between five aggregate and Nama-rupa?

Post by AlexBrains92 »

DooDoot wrote: Thu Oct 29, 2020 1:48 am You are sounding like Nargajuna. :smile:
Thank you! :heart:
DooDoot wrote: Thu Oct 29, 2020 1:48 am Not all causality is dependent origination.
I'm not saying, for example, that since death for covid has covid infection as cause and condition, this is DO.
No.
I'm still talking about namarupa and vinnana. The real blasphemy would be not considering them in a DO perspective.
"If appeasement of desires is what is really blissful, 'desirelessness' as the appeasement of all desires would be the Supreme Bliss, and this in fact is what Nibbāna is." (Bhikkhu Kaṭukurunde Ñāṇananda)
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Re: What is the difference between five aggregate and Nama-rupa?

Post by confusedlayman »

AlexBrains92 wrote: Thu Oct 29, 2020 6:13 am
DooDoot wrote: Thu Oct 29, 2020 1:48 am You are sounding like Nargajuna. :smile:
Thank you! :heart:
DooDoot wrote: Thu Oct 29, 2020 1:48 am Not all causality is dependent origination.
I'm not saying, for example, that since death for covid has covid infection as cause and condition, this is DO.
No.
I'm still talking about namarupa and vinnana. The real blasphemy would be not considering them in a DO perspective.
Mind and body
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Re: What is the difference between five aggregate and Nama-rupa?

Post by DooDoot »

AlexBrains92 wrote: Thu Oct 29, 2020 6:13 am I'm still talking about namarupa and vinnana.
Consciousness does not "cause" the physical body (rupa) to be created from the four elements.

All that consciousness does is allow the mind-body (nama-rupa) to be known or experienced; therefore consciousness is a "paccaya" for nama-rupa but not a "hetu".

AN 10.61 is very good for understanding paccaya, where it says the five hindrances are a paccaya for ignorance. Note: the five hindrances cannot be a "cause" ("hetu") of ignorance because ignorance is actually the 1st cause.

Thus SN 22.82 says nama-rupa is the cause of consciousness but not vice versa.

Yet SN 12.65 & 67, which use the word "paccaya", say the two are vice versa.

In other words, obviously consciousness somehow evolved out of matter (rupa). :smile:

Thus, the suttas consistently say consciousness is "dependent upon" sense organs & sense objects.

The only fall back is the dodgy DN 15, which defines many conditions different to the body of suttas, including a disembodied consciousness floating around in outer space entering into mother's wombs.
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Re: What is the difference between five aggregate and Nama-rupa?

Post by AlexBrains92 »

DooDoot wrote: Thu Oct 29, 2020 7:43 am AN 10.61 is very good for understanding paccaya, where it says the five hindrances are a paccaya for ignorance. Note: the five hindrances cannot be a "cause" ("hetu") of ignorance because ignorance is actually the 1st cause.
Is ignorance the first hetu... or paccaya? Quote please.

However, I found that paccaya also means cause.

Vinnana can be cause of namarupa, if we understand namarupa as explained by Nanananda.
"If appeasement of desires is what is really blissful, 'desirelessness' as the appeasement of all desires would be the Supreme Bliss, and this in fact is what Nibbāna is." (Bhikkhu Kaṭukurunde Ñāṇananda)
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Re: What is the difference between five aggregate and Nama-rupa?

Post by DooDoot »

AlexBrains92 wrote: Thu Oct 29, 2020 8:07 am However, I found that paccaya also means cause.
Continuing to talk around in unsubstantiated circles. A link was already provided but ignored.
AlexBrains92 wrote: Thu Oct 29, 2020 8:07 amVinnana can be cause of namarupa, if we understand namarupa as explained....
Appeared to not even understand what namarupa is so how can explain it. Are you going to quote papanca about a ball. Lol.
AlexBrains92 wrote: Thu Oct 29, 2020 8:07 amIs ignorance the first hetu... or paccaya? Quote please.
Obviously, out of your depth when can't even understand a sutta given to read for homework. :smile:

Nama-rupa = mentality-materiality. Name-form = Hinduism. DN 11, DN 15, SN 7.6, MN 49 = teachings for/to Brahmins.

In DN 11 & MN 49 + SN 7.6, nama-rupa ceases but consciousness remains. This is obviously a teaching for Brahmins.

DN 15 nama-rupa unrelated to dukkha & its arising = fake news. :smile: If consciousness were not to descend into the mother’s womb, would mentality-materiality take shape in the womb. :rofl: the features, attributes, signs and details by which the categories of mental or physical phenomena :rofl:
MN 149 wrote:When one abides inflamed by lust, fettered, infatuated, contemplating gratification, then the five aggregates affected by clinging are built up for oneself in the future; and one’s craving—which brings renewal of being, is accompanied by delight and lust, and delights in this and that—increases. One’s bodily and mental troubles increase, one’s bodily and mental torments increase, one’s bodily and mental fevers increase, and one experiences bodily and mental suffering..
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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