entered upon the path of ariya vs ariya

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TRobinson465
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entered upon the path of ariya vs ariya

Post by TRobinson465 »

Hello folks,

Does anyone understand the difference between one who has entered upon the path of an ariya and being an ariya? for instance the passage below.
sotāpattiphalasacchikiriyāya paṭipanne dānaṁ datvā
having given a gift to one who has entered upon the way to experiencing the fruit of Stream-Entry

asaṅkheyyā appameyyā dakkhiṇā pāṭikaṅkhitabbā.
an immeasurable, unlimited offering is to be expected (in return).

Ko pana vādo Sotāpanne?
What to say about a Stream-Enterer?

Ko pana vādo Sakadāgāmiphalasacchikiriyāya paṭipanne?
What to say about one who has entered upon the way to experiencing the fruit of Once-Returning?

Ko pana vādo Sakadāgāmissa?
What to say about a Once-Returner?

Ko pana vādo Anāgāmiphalasacchikiriyāya paṭipanne?
What to say about one who has entered upon the way to experiencing the fruit of Non-Returning?

Ko pana vādo Anāgāmissa?
What to say about a Non-Returner?

Ko pana vādo Arahattaphalasacchikiriyāya paṭipanne?
What to say about one who has entered upon the way to experiencing the fruit of Worthiness?

Ko pana vādo Arahante?
What to say about a Worthy One?
https://www.ancient-buddhist-texts.net/ ... 0woGA#toc3
"Do not have blind faith, but also no blind criticism" - the 14th Dalai Lama

"At Varanasi, in the Deer Park at Isipatana, the Blessed One has set in motion the unexcelled Wheel of Dhamma that cannot be stopped by brahmins, devas, Maras, Brahmas or anyone in the cosmos." -Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta

"Go forth, monks, for the good of the many, for the happiness of the many, out of compassion for the world, for the welfare, the good and the happiness of gods and men. Let no two of you go in the same direction." - First Khandhaka, Chapter 11, Vinaya.
SarathW
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Re: entered upon the path of ariya vs ariya

Post by SarathW »

To me, it is like a person who is trying to understand that the world is round and the person who realises with by any means.
Most of us are on the Sotapanna Path but not realise the fruit yet.
The way I see it when you have to experience Sotapanna fruit then you are in the Sakdhagami path.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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confusedlayman
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Re: entered upon the path of ariya vs ariya

Post by confusedlayman »

Trainingg for path is fruit or result yet to be attained

Attained path means fruit or result attained, irreversible change happened and only a matter of time before u go up
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
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Mahabrahma
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Re: entered upon the path of ariya vs ariya

Post by Mahabrahma »

If you have entered upon the path of being an Ariya, you are walking on the path that Ariya walk. Are you an Ariya? If you are, then good. If you are still to become one but are not yet, it is good that you are on that path, for Ariya walk the path that they have made, their footsteps creating it for you, leading you to the destination of the city of Nirvana. For many, it is a long journey.
Viachh
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Re: entered upon the path of ariya vs ariya

Post by Viachh »

Only the arya can follow the Aryan way. Non-arya cannot follow the Aryan way. There is no arya that does not follow the path of the aria. Therefore, there is no difference between the arya and the arya that has entered the path of the arya.
coconut
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Re: entered upon the path of ariya vs ariya

Post by coconut »

A path attainer is an Ariya. Fruit means fetters have been destroyed, i.e. it is the result (fruit).

There are only 8 types of Ariya.
santa100
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Re: entered upon the path of ariya vs ariya

Post by santa100 »

TRobinson465 wrote:Does anyone understand the difference between one who has entered upon the path of an ariya and being an ariya?
Refer to MN 70 for the seven-fold typology of noble disciples, two of which, the faith-follower/SaddhaNusari and Dhamma-follower/DhammaNusari, are 2 classes of disciples who are on the Path for realization of the fruit of stream-entry. A more detailed description about them is available at Vism. Chpt.XXI.74-78
sakyan
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Re: entered upon the path of ariya vs ariya

Post by sakyan »

One who has entered upon the path to stream-entry possess the five faculties of faith, energy, mindfulness, concentration and wisdom.

Though these 5 faculties need no further explanation as one can easily understand them from their name. The wisdom faculty is not the normal faculty of worldy wisdom but it is the wisdom faculty of arising-passing away by which one discerns the inconstancy of all phenomenon.

Such an individual is of 2 types based on suttas. Faith-follower and Dhamma-follower.

Faith-follower is one who has conviction and belief that all phenomenon are inconstant and he has the above mentioned 5 faculties.

Dhamma-follower is one who after pondering with a certain amount of wisdom has accepted that all phenomenon are inconstant and he has the above mentioned 5 faculties.

A stream-enterer is one who knows and sees that all phenomenon are inconstant. He too possess these 5 faculties and his 5 faculties are superior and stronger as compared to the faith-follower and the dhamma-follower.
sakyan
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Re: entered upon the path of ariya vs ariya

Post by sakyan »

SarathW wrote: Thu Oct 29, 2020 7:14 am To me, it is like a person who is trying to understand that the world is round and the person who realises with by any means.
Most of us are on the Sotapanna Path but not realise the fruit yet.
The way I see it when you have to experience Sotapanna fruit then you are in the Sakdhagami path.
Faith-follower and Dhamma-follower need to have 5 faculties of faith, energy, mindfulness, concentration and wisdom as per sutta definition to be a path follower.

I doubt most of us possess these 5 faculties. Most of us are ordinary and virtuous lay-followers, Hardly a few people on this platform have these 5 faculties.

Again this is my observation on this platform which can be either right or totally wrong.
SarathW
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Re: entered upon the path of ariya vs ariya

Post by SarathW »

sakyan wrote: Thu Oct 29, 2020 3:08 pm
SarathW wrote: Thu Oct 29, 2020 7:14 am To me, it is like a person who is trying to understand that the world is round and the person who realises with by any means.
Most of us are on the Sotapanna Path but not realise the fruit yet.
The way I see it when you have to experience Sotapanna fruit then you are in the Sakdhagami path.
Faith-follower and Dhamma-follower need to have 5 faculties of faith, energy, mindfulness, concentration and wisdom as per sutta definition to be a path follower.

I doubt most of us possess these 5 faculties. Most of us are ordinary and virtuous lay-followers, Hardly a few people on this platform have these 5 faculties.

Again this is my observation on this platform which can be either right or totally wrong.
The Blessed One said, "Now what, monks, is the Noble Eightfold Path? Right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

In my opinion, many in this forum are on the path. Do you think they are here to waste their and others time?
this platform which can be either right or totally wrong.
I think the path is in between. If a person get every thing right s/he should be an Arahant in my opinion.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
coconut
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Re: entered upon the path of ariya vs ariya

Post by coconut »

sakyan wrote: Thu Oct 29, 2020 3:08 pm
SarathW wrote: Thu Oct 29, 2020 7:14 am To me, it is like a person who is trying to understand that the world is round and the person who realises with by any means.
Most of us are on the Sotapanna Path but not realise the fruit yet.
The way I see it when you have to experience Sotapanna fruit then you are in the Sakdhagami path.
Faith-follower and Dhamma-follower need to have 5 faculties of faith, energy, mindfulness, concentration and wisdom as per sutta definition to be a path follower.

I doubt most of us possess these 5 faculties. Most of us are ordinary and virtuous lay-followers, Hardly a few people on this platform have these 5 faculties.

Again this is my observation on this platform which can be either right or totally wrong.
I believe you're wrong. I remember reading a sutta that says that the faith follower has only developed the faith faculty.

Everyone has the 5 faculilties, they're just not developed.

I believe a stream entry fruit attainer has executed the entire noble eightfold path once.

The more you execute the path, the more your faculties develop.
Someone who has completed and fulfilled these five faculties is a perfected one. If they are weaker than that, they’re a non-returner. If they are weaker still, they’re a once-returner. If they are weaker still, they’re a stream-enterer. If they’re weaker still, they’re a follower of the teachings. If they’re weaker still, they’re a follower by faith.”
- SN 48.12
Someone who totally and utterly lacks these five faculties is an outsider who belongs with the ordinary persons, I say.”
- SN 48.18

Thus if you have faith faculty developed, and not the rest, you're still an Ariya. The bare minimum is faith.
sakyan
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Re: entered upon the path of ariya vs ariya

Post by sakyan »

coconut wrote: Thu Oct 29, 2020 10:30 pm
sakyan wrote: Thu Oct 29, 2020 3:08 pm
SarathW wrote: Thu Oct 29, 2020 7:14 am To me, it is like a person who is trying to understand that the world is round and the person who realises with by any means.
Most of us are on the Sotapanna Path but not realise the fruit yet.
The way I see it when you have to experience Sotapanna fruit then you are in the Sakdhagami path.
Faith-follower and Dhamma-follower need to have 5 faculties of faith, energy, mindfulness, concentration and wisdom as per sutta definition to be a path follower.

I doubt most of us possess these 5 faculties. Most of us are ordinary and virtuous lay-followers, Hardly a few people on this platform have these 5 faculties.

Again this is my observation on this platform which can be either right or totally wrong.
I believe you're wrong. I remember reading a sutta that says that the faith follower has only developed the faith faculty.

Everyone has the 5 faculilties, they're just not developed.

I believe a stream entry fruit attainer has executed the entire noble eightfold path once.

The more you execute the path, the more your faculties develop.
Someone who has completed and fulfilled these five faculties is a perfected one. If they are weaker than that, they’re a non-returner. If they are weaker still, they’re a once-returner. If they are weaker still, they’re a stream-enterer. If they’re weaker still, they’re a follower of the teachings. If they’re weaker still, they’re a follower by faith.”
- SN 48.12
Someone who totally and utterly lacks these five faculties is an outsider who belongs with the ordinary persons, I say.”
- SN 48.18

Thus if you have faith faculty developed, and not the rest, you're still an Ariya. The bare minimum is faith.
This itself explains that the least of the Ariya, a path-follower to Sotapanna possess the 5 faculties in their weakest form when compared to the other higher ariyas.

Faith and wisdom faculty can be stronger in faith-follower and wisdom-follower respectively but they do possess other remaining faculties.
Someone who has completed and fulfilled these five faculties is a perfected one. If they are weaker than that, they’re a non-returner. If they are weaker still, they’re a once-returner. If they are weaker still, they’re a stream-enterer. If they’re weaker still, they’re a follower of the teachings. If they’re weaker still, they’re a follower by faith.”
sakyan
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Re: entered upon the path of ariya vs ariya

Post by sakyan »

SarathW wrote: Thu Oct 29, 2020 10:05 pm
sakyan wrote: Thu Oct 29, 2020 3:08 pm
SarathW wrote: Thu Oct 29, 2020 7:14 am To me, it is like a person who is trying to understand that the world is round and the person who realises with by any means.
Most of us are on the Sotapanna Path but not realise the fruit yet.
The way I see it when you have to experience Sotapanna fruit then you are in the Sakdhagami path.


Faith-follower and Dhamma-follower need to have 5 faculties of faith, energy, mindfulness, concentration and wisdom as per sutta definition to be a path follower.

I doubt most of us possess these 5 faculties. Most of us are ordinary and virtuous lay-followers, Hardly a few people on this platform have these 5 faculties.

Again this is my observation on this platform which can be either right or totally wrong.
The Blessed One said, "Now what, monks, is the Noble Eightfold Path? Right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

In my opinion, many in this forum are on the path. Do you think they are here to waste their and others time?
this platform which can be either right or totally wrong.
I think the path is in between. If a person get every thing right s/he should be an Arahant in my opinion.
During the Buddha's time there were monks who were very skilled and learned in dhamma but lack any attainments and were mere ordinary people. These monks lead many to stream-entry and even to arhatship by repeating the discourses of the Buddha and explaining them. They lacked experiential confidence.

In my opinion, a person who knows everything about the dhamma and has experiential confidence and has removed 10 fetters is an Arhat.

A person who knows everything about the dhamma and has experiential confidence and has removed certain fetters is an Ariya.

A person who knows everything about the dhamma and doesn't have experiential confidence is an ordinary one.

Many people ignore the 5 faculties by which the Buddha describes Ariyas and Path-follower Ariyas. The wisdom faculty of arising-passing is very important to be able to conclude that one is a path-follower.

It is the knowledge of arising-passing which enables one to see the inconstancy of all dhammas. Ordinary people can be skilled in memorising and explaining the dhamma from their memory but it takes some sort of practical experience to have conviction and the understanding that all dhammas are inconstant and this is only possible by wisdom faculty of arising-passing.

Again what I have written is my humble opinion.
TRobinson465
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Re: entered upon the path of ariya vs ariya

Post by TRobinson465 »

SarathW wrote: Thu Oct 29, 2020 7:14 am To me, it is like a person who is trying to understand that the world is round and the person who realises with by any means.
Most of us are on the Sotapanna Path but not realise the fruit yet.
The way I see it when you have to experience Sotapanna fruit then you are in the Sakdhagami path.
I was thinking something like this as well. But it seems strange because then why would the Buddha make such a distinction for all four states at all other than for the path of sotapanna if fruit of sotapanna was just the same as path of sakhagami?
"Do not have blind faith, but also no blind criticism" - the 14th Dalai Lama

"At Varanasi, in the Deer Park at Isipatana, the Blessed One has set in motion the unexcelled Wheel of Dhamma that cannot be stopped by brahmins, devas, Maras, Brahmas or anyone in the cosmos." -Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta

"Go forth, monks, for the good of the many, for the happiness of the many, out of compassion for the world, for the welfare, the good and the happiness of gods and men. Let no two of you go in the same direction." - First Khandhaka, Chapter 11, Vinaya.
SarathW
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Re: entered upon the path of ariya vs ariya

Post by SarathW »

TRobinson465 wrote: Fri Oct 30, 2020 3:09 am
SarathW wrote: Thu Oct 29, 2020 7:14 am To me, it is like a person who is trying to understand that the world is round and the person who realises with by any means.
Most of us are on the Sotapanna Path but not realise the fruit yet.
The way I see it when you have to experience Sotapanna fruit then you are in the Sakdhagami path.
I was thinking something like this as well. But it seems strange because then why would the Buddha make such a distinction for all four states at all other than for the path of sotapanna if fruit of sotapanna was just the same as path of sakhagami?
It is a good point and I never thought about it! :twothumbsup:
My guess is Sakadhagami still has to do the same hard yakka what ever Sotapanna did. :D
The path stops only when you become an Arahant in other words Arahant follow the path with the knowledge. (Arahant is not a Sekha (student) any more)
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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