Is nibbāna dependently originated at the sense base?

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Coëmgenu
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Is nibbāna dependently originated at the sense base?

Post by Coëmgenu »

Nibbāna as an extant unexperienced dhamma aside, in Theravāda, is nibbāna, when perceived, dependently originated via contact in the impermenent mind as an object that paradoxically is not suffering and, though permanent itself, is experienced impermanently by impermanent beings? I am thinking specifically of the language used in the "existence of Nibbāna" thread that frames nibbāna as contact with an unconditioned dhamma and parinibbāna as the cessation of consciousness/contact under special conditions.
The thus come thus gone,
who has neither came nor went,
enthroned on men’s breath,

like the still turtle,
withdraws six appendages
and is clothed in light --

illuminating
the unilluminated
with three shining cures.
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Re: Is nibbāna dependently originated at the sense base?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,
Is nibbāna dependently originated at the sense base?
No. Nibbāna is not dependently originated.

Nibbāna is the cessation of origination.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"It is natural that one who knows and sees things as they really are is disenchanted and dispassionate." (AN 10.2)

"Overcome the liar by truth." (Dhp 223)
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Re: Is nibbāna dependently originated at the sense base?

Post by DooDoot »

Ye of little faith, the Path is conditioned, the destination is Unconditioned.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Re: Is nibbāna dependently originated at the sense base?

Post by Coëmgenu »

DooDoot wrote: Fri Oct 30, 2020 4:43 am Ye of little faith, the Path is conditioned, the destination is Unconditioned.
O ye of many assumptions, the poser of questions needn't believe what you imagine they believe.
The thus come thus gone,
who has neither came nor went,
enthroned on men’s breath,

like the still turtle,
withdraws six appendages
and is clothed in light --

illuminating
the unilluminated
with three shining cures.
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Re: Is nibbāna dependently originated at the sense base?

Post by Ceisiwr »

Coëmgenu wrote: Thu Oct 29, 2020 10:23 pm Nibbāna as an extant unexperienced dhamma aside, in Theravāda, is nibbāna, when perceived, dependently originated via contact in the impermenent mind as an object that paradoxically is not suffering and, though permanent itself, is experienced impermanently by impermanent beings? I am thinking specifically of the language used in the "existence of Nibbāna" thread that frames nibbāna as contact with an unconditioned dhamma and parinibbāna as the cessation of consciousness/contact under special conditions.
Nibbāna is a permanent dhamma that is cognised at the mind base. The purification of the mind that occurs due to this contact is permanent. The actual experience is not.
Saññāvirattassa na santi ganthā,
Paññāvimuttassa na santi mohā;
Saññañca diṭṭhiñca ye aggahesuṃ,
Te ghaṭṭayantā vicaranti loke”ti.


“For one detached from perception, there exist no ties,
for one by wisdom freed, no delusions are there,
but those who have grasped perceptions and views,
they wander the world stirring up strife."


Māgaṇḍiya Sutta
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Re: Is nibbāna dependently originated at the sense base?

Post by Coëmgenu »

Ceisiwr wrote: Fri Oct 30, 2020 4:49 am
Coëmgenu wrote: Thu Oct 29, 2020 10:23 pm Nibbāna as an extant unexperienced dhamma aside, in Theravāda, is nibbāna, when perceived, dependently originated via contact in the impermenent mind as an object that paradoxically is not suffering and, though permanent itself, is experienced impermanently by impermanent beings? I am thinking specifically of the language used in the "existence of Nibbāna" thread that frames nibbāna as contact with an unconditioned dhamma and parinibbāna as the cessation of consciousness/contact under special conditions.
Nibbāna is a permanent dhamma that is cognised at the mind base. The purification of the mind that occurs due to this contact is permanent. The actual experience is not.
If the Dhamma is in some way "Idealist," then the existence of a dhamma is the experience of a dhamma, no? You've just described a situation in which parinibbāna is the end of the experience of nibbāna, unless you want to qualify it further.
The thus come thus gone,
who has neither came nor went,
enthroned on men’s breath,

like the still turtle,
withdraws six appendages
and is clothed in light --

illuminating
the unilluminated
with three shining cures.
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Re: Is nibbāna dependently originated at the sense base?

Post by Ceisiwr »



Trinity has never seen the sun, yet it is always there. When she breaks through the dark clouds, after battling the armies, the sun is revealed yet the experience is not permanent. Eventually she has to fall back to Earth. The cognition of nibbāna is similar. After battling the armies of Mara you will cognise nibbāna but, eventually, you have to fall back to the conditioned world. That is, until the final death of course.
Saññāvirattassa na santi ganthā,
Paññāvimuttassa na santi mohā;
Saññañca diṭṭhiñca ye aggahesuṃ,
Te ghaṭṭayantā vicaranti loke”ti.


“For one detached from perception, there exist no ties,
for one by wisdom freed, no delusions are there,
but those who have grasped perceptions and views,
they wander the world stirring up strife."


Māgaṇḍiya Sutta
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Re: Is nibbāna dependently originated at the sense base?

Post by DooDoot »

And what, bhikkhus, are the six sense bases? The eye base, the ear base, the nose base, the tongue base, the body base, the mind base. These are called the six sense bases.

And what, bhikkhus, is consciousness? There are these six classes of consciousness: eye-consciousness, ear-consciousness, nose-consciousness, tongue-consciousness, body-consciousness, mind-consciousness. This is called consciousness.

SN 12.2
The six sense bases are impermanent … Consciousness is impermanent, conditioned, dependently arisen, subject to destruction, vanishing, fading away and cessation. These, bhikkhus, are called the dependently arisen phenomena.

SN 12.20
“Bhikkhus, I will teach you the taintless and the path leading to the taintless. Listen to that….

“Bhikkhus, I will teach you the truth and the path leading to the truth…. I will teach you the far shore … the subtle … the very difficult to see … the unaging … … the stable … the undisintegrating … the unmanifest … the unproliferated … the peaceful … the deathless … the sublime … the auspicious … … the secure …. the destruction of craving … the wonderful … the amazing … the unailing … the unailing state … Nibbāna … the unafflicted … dispassion … … purity … freedom … the unadhesive … the island … the shelter … the asylum … the refuge … …”

https://suttacentral.net/sn43.14-43/en/bodhi
Last edited by DooDoot on Fri Oct 30, 2020 5:11 am, edited 1 time in total.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Re: Is nibbāna dependently originated at the sense base?

Post by Ceisiwr »

Coëmgenu wrote: Fri Oct 30, 2020 5:00 am
Ceisiwr wrote: Fri Oct 30, 2020 4:49 am
Coëmgenu wrote: Thu Oct 29, 2020 10:23 pm Nibbāna as an extant unexperienced dhamma aside, in Theravāda, is nibbāna, when perceived, dependently originated via contact in the impermenent mind as an object that paradoxically is not suffering and, though permanent itself, is experienced impermanently by impermanent beings? I am thinking specifically of the language used in the "existence of Nibbāna" thread that frames nibbāna as contact with an unconditioned dhamma and parinibbāna as the cessation of consciousness/contact under special conditions.
Nibbāna is a permanent dhamma that is cognised at the mind base. The purification of the mind that occurs due to this contact is permanent. The actual experience is not.
If the Dhamma is in some way "Idealist," then the existence of a dhamma is the experience of a dhamma, no? You've just described a situation in which parinibbāna is the end of the experience of nibbāna, unless you want to qualify it further.
Epistemologically so, which simply does away with material substance metaphysics like Prakṛti but doesn't make dhammas dependent on mind. Parinibbāna is the cessation of all conditioned dhammas and that is all that can be said of it. If there is anything else or not does not apply.
Saññāvirattassa na santi ganthā,
Paññāvimuttassa na santi mohā;
Saññañca diṭṭhiñca ye aggahesuṃ,
Te ghaṭṭayantā vicaranti loke”ti.


“For one detached from perception, there exist no ties,
for one by wisdom freed, no delusions are there,
but those who have grasped perceptions and views,
they wander the world stirring up strife."


Māgaṇḍiya Sutta
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Re: Is nibbāna dependently originated at the sense base?

Post by Coëmgenu »

Didn't you earlier reject unperceived form? If there is unperceived nibbāna, why not unperceived form? They are both "the unperceived."
Ceisiwr wrote: Fri Oct 30, 2020 5:09 amParinibbāna is the cessation of all conditioned dhammas and that is all that can be said of it. If there is anything else or not does not apply.
You say that now, but when you say that the experience of nibbāna ends with parinibbāna, I take your lack of correction here as assent, you have actually already presented us with a conclusion, that nibbāna is impermanent as an object of cognition, because cognition is innately impermanent as presented. Due to this, nibbāna as the permanent cannot be attained, only as the impermanent.
The thus come thus gone,
who has neither came nor went,
enthroned on men’s breath,

like the still turtle,
withdraws six appendages
and is clothed in light --

illuminating
the unilluminated
with three shining cures.
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Re: Is nibbāna dependently originated at the sense base?

Post by Ceisiwr »

Coëmgenu wrote: Fri Oct 30, 2020 5:45 am
Didn't you earlier reject unperceived form? If there is unperceived nibbāna, why not unperceived form? They are both "the unperceived."
I did yes when I was considering ontological Idealism. I find little support for that in the suttas, for whilst that would abolish material substance it would only strengthen immaterial substance. All forms of substance of course being denied in the Phena sutta. Although the 4 mahābhūtas and rūpa are qualities and appearance the suttas seem to strongly suggest that there is an external world, its just all we can know is in the form of nāmarūpa thus, in my mind, being what the west calls epistemic Idealism. I suspect the Buddha was only concerned with direct experience and what we know rather than a stronger ontology and forays into Rationalism, although of course he does infer some ontological claims such as there being no self.
Saññāvirattassa na santi ganthā,
Paññāvimuttassa na santi mohā;
Saññañca diṭṭhiñca ye aggahesuṃ,
Te ghaṭṭayantā vicaranti loke”ti.


“For one detached from perception, there exist no ties,
for one by wisdom freed, no delusions are there,
but those who have grasped perceptions and views,
they wander the world stirring up strife."


Māgaṇḍiya Sutta
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Re: Is nibbāna dependently originated at the sense base?

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Coëmgenu wrote: Fri Oct 30, 2020 5:45 am
You say that now, but when you say that the experience of nibbāna ends with parinibbāna, I take your lack of correction here as assent, you have actually already presented us with a conclusion, that nibbāna is impermanent as an object of cognition, because cognition is innately impermanent as presented. Due to this, nibbāna as the permanent cannot be attained, only as the impermanent.
The problem is that you are still thinking in terms of the aggregates here and projecting that into nibbāna. You cannot tie up nibbāna to conditioned phenomena in that way. Citta is privileged in being the only conditioned phenomena capable of experiencing nibbāna, and of course at parinibbāna citta ends along with all of the other aggregates, but that does not mean nibbāna ceases or there is nothing else. Doesn't mean there is either of course. The pathway of language goes as far as citta and nāmarūpa:
Then Ven. Maha Kotthita went to Ven. Sariputta and, on arrival, exchanged courteous greetings with him. After an exchange of friendly greetings & courtesies, he sat to one side. As he was sitting there, he said to Ven. Sariputta, “With the remainderless stopping & fading of the six contact-media [vision, hearing, smell, taste, touch, & intellection] is it the case that there is anything else?”

[Sariputta:] “Don’t say that, my friend.”

[Maha Kotthita:] “With the remainderless stopping & fading of the six contact-media, is it the case that there is not anything else?”

[Sariputta:] “Don’t say that, my friend.”

[Maha Kotthita:] “…is it the case that there both is & is not anything else?”

[Sariputta:] “Don’t say that, my friend.”

[Maha Kotthita:] “…is it the case that there neither is nor is not anything else?”

[Sariputta:] “Don’t say that, my friend.”

[Maha Kotthita:] “Being asked if, with the remainderless stopping & fading of the six contact-media, there is anything else, you say, ‘Don’t say that, my friend.’ Being asked if … there is not anything else … there both is & is not anything else … there neither is nor is not anything else, you say, ‘Don’t say that, my friend.’ Now, how is the meaning of your words to be understood?”

[Sariputta:] “The statement, ‘With the remainderless stopping & fading of the six contact-media [vision, hearing, smell, taste, touch, & intellection] is it the case that there is anything else?’ objectifies non-objectification. The statement, ‘… is it the case that there is not anything else … is it the case that there both is & is not anything else … is it the case that there neither is nor is not anything else?’ objectifies non-objectification. However far the six contact-media go, that is how far objectification goes. However far objectification goes, that is how far the six contact media go. With the remainderless fading & stopping of the six contact-media, there comes to be the stopping, the allaying of objectification.
https://suttacentral.net/an4.173/en/thanissaro

What parinibbāna is like is totally beyond words. All we know is that it exists.
Saññāvirattassa na santi ganthā,
Paññāvimuttassa na santi mohā;
Saññañca diṭṭhiñca ye aggahesuṃ,
Te ghaṭṭayantā vicaranti loke”ti.


“For one detached from perception, there exist no ties,
for one by wisdom freed, no delusions are there,
but those who have grasped perceptions and views,
they wander the world stirring up strife."


Māgaṇḍiya Sutta
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Re: Is nibbāna dependently originated at the sense base?

Post by Coëmgenu »

A thought experiment -- test the premises.

The Tathāgata upon nibbāna is no longer identified via his having of five aggregates.

The Tathāgata is not identifiable inasmuch as he has consciousness.

Nibbāna is the cessation of, at least, identifiability with consciousness.

When the Tathāgata's body and life subsrate ceases at parinibbāna, regardless of if his consciousness ceases here or has already with nibbāna, there is no change, for the Tathāgata is not identifiable as having consciousness, much less not having it. The Tathāgata cannot be said to have changed with parinibbāna.

I've not read your post above yet. I will now.
The thus come thus gone,
who has neither came nor went,
enthroned on men’s breath,

like the still turtle,
withdraws six appendages
and is clothed in light --

illuminating
the unilluminated
with three shining cures.
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Re: Is nibbāna dependently originated at the sense base?

Post by Coëmgenu »

Ceisiwr wrote: Fri Oct 30, 2020 6:01 am
Coëmgenu wrote: Fri Oct 30, 2020 5:45 am
You say that now, but when you say that the experience of nibbāna ends with parinibbāna, I take your lack of correction here as assent, you have actually already presented us with a conclusion, that nibbāna is impermanent as an object of cognition, because cognition is innately impermanent as presented. Due to this, nibbāna as the permanent cannot be attained, only as the impermanent.
The problem is that you are still thinking in terms of the aggregates here and projecting that into nibbāna.
Actually, I am suggesting that the proposals you have made lead to an imponderable conclusion, that nibbāna ceases for the Buddha.
The thus come thus gone,
who has neither came nor went,
enthroned on men’s breath,

like the still turtle,
withdraws six appendages
and is clothed in light --

illuminating
the unilluminated
with three shining cures.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Is nibbāna dependently originated at the sense base?

Post by Ceisiwr »

Coëmgenu wrote: Fri Oct 30, 2020 6:10 am A thought experiment -- test the premises.

The Tathāgata upon nibbāna is no longer identified via his having of five aggregates.

The Tathāgata is not identifiable inasmuch as he has consciousness.

Nibbāna is the cessation of, at least, identifiability with consciousness.

When the Tathāgata's body and life subsrate ceases at parinibbāna, regardless of if his consciousness ceases here or has already with nibbāna, there is no change, for the Tathāgata is not identifiable as having consciousness, much less not having it. The Tathāgata cannot be said to have changed with parinibbāna.

I've not read your post above yet. I will now.
You haven't asked me anything?
Actually, I am suggesting that the proposals you have made lead to an imponderable conclusion, that nibbāna ceases for the Buddha.
The Tathāgata is unfathomable and beyond words. Nibbāna is unfathomable and beyond words. Nibbāna ceases for citta.
Saññāvirattassa na santi ganthā,
Paññāvimuttassa na santi mohā;
Saññañca diṭṭhiñca ye aggahesuṃ,
Te ghaṭṭayantā vicaranti loke”ti.


“For one detached from perception, there exist no ties,
for one by wisdom freed, no delusions are there,
but those who have grasped perceptions and views,
they wander the world stirring up strife."


Māgaṇḍiya Sutta
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