Is nibbāna dependently originated at the sense base?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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Coëmgenu
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Re: Is nibbāna dependently originated at the sense base?

Post by Coëmgenu »

Ceisiwr wrote: Fri Oct 30, 2020 6:24 amYou haven't asked me anything?
I should have been clearer, sorry. I was posing a series of statements for agreement or dissent to the forum (and you), not asking a question.
The thus come thus gone,
who has neither came nor went,
enthroned on men’s breath,

like the still turtle,
withdraws six appendages
and is clothed in light --

illuminating
the unilluminated
with three shining cures.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Is nibbāna dependently originated at the sense base?

Post by Ceisiwr »

Coëmgenu wrote: Fri Oct 30, 2020 6:30 am
Ceisiwr wrote: Fri Oct 30, 2020 6:24 amYou haven't asked me anything?
I should have been clearer, sorry. I was posing a series of statements for agreement or dissent to the forum (and you), not asking a question.
I see. I think the basic reply should be that since all we know as worldlings are conditioned phenomena and since consciousness and nāmarūpa are the extent of designations, language and concepts ultimately the Tathāgata and parinibbāna are unfathomable. All we can do is accept that nibbāna exists, that when the 6 sense media fades away it is directly cognised and upon parinibbāna all conditioned phenomena cease without remainder. Beyond that is ??? since any attempt to discuss it will have to rely on language and language relies upon nāmarūpa and the 6 sense bases, but that has been abandoned so its beyond the range of all conception and description. Therefore, any attempt to say that parinibbāna is x, say an eternal self or an eternal nothingness, is nothing more than papanca arising from nāmarūpa and so missing the point entirely.
Saññāvirattassa na santi ganthā,
Paññāvimuttassa na santi mohā;
Saññañca diṭṭhiñca ye aggahesuṃ,
Te ghaṭṭayantā vicaranti loke”ti.


“For one detached from perception, there exist no ties,
for one by wisdom freed, no delusions are there,
but those who have grasped perceptions and views,
they wander the world stirring up strife."


Māgaṇḍiya Sutta
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Is nibbāna dependently originated at the sense base?

Post by Ceisiwr »

So, for example when the Sautrāntikas say that nibbāna is nothingness that is simply conceptual proliferation arising from nāmarūpa.
Saññāvirattassa na santi ganthā,
Paññāvimuttassa na santi mohā;
Saññañca diṭṭhiñca ye aggahesuṃ,
Te ghaṭṭayantā vicaranti loke”ti.


“For one detached from perception, there exist no ties,
for one by wisdom freed, no delusions are there,
but those who have grasped perceptions and views,
they wander the world stirring up strife."


Māgaṇḍiya Sutta
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DooDoot
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Re: Is nibbāna dependently originated at the sense base?

Post by DooDoot »

Sutta compares Nibbana to the ocean, as follows:
Just as, whatever streams in the world flow into the great ocean and however much rain falls into it from the sky, neither a decrease nor a filling up can be seen in the great ocean, so too, even if many bhikkhus attain final nibbāna by way of the nibbāna element without residue remaining, neither a decrease nor a filling up can be seen in the nibbāna element.

https://suttacentral.net/an8.19/en/bodhi
When a person walks to and eventually sees the ocean, their seeing of the ocean does not bring the ocean into existence because the ocean has always existed.

Note: I understand the primary philosophy on DW is solipsism and its a difficult habit of imagining one is god the creator to break. :smile:
I, monk, am Brahma, the Great Brahma, the Conqueror, the Unconquered, the All-Seeing, All-Powerful, the Sovereign Lord, the Maker, Creator, Chief, Appointer and Ruler, Father of All That Have Been and Shall Be.'

:rofl:
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Pulsar
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Re: Is nibbāna dependently originated at the sense base?

Post by Pulsar »

Dearest OP: You start with a strange premise.
I am thinking specifically of the language used in the "existence of Nibbāna" thread that frames nibbāna as contact with an unconditioned dhamma and parinibbāna as the cessation of consciousness/contact under special conditions.
That thread lead to (was it not very long? long like samsara?) much mental proliferation, therefore is this not meant for a similar fate?
However what you write here is absolutely wonderful.
A thought experiment -- test the premises.

The Tathāgata upon nibbāna is no longer identified via his having of five aggregates.
The Tathāgata is not identifiable inasmuch as he has consciousness.
Nibbāna is the cessation of, at least, identifiability with consciousness.

When the Tathāgata's body and life subsrate ceases at parinibbāna, regardless of if his consciousness ceases here or has already with nibbāna, there is no change, for the Tathāgata is not identifiable as having consciousness, much less not having it. The Tathāgata cannot be said to have changed with parinibbāna.
It brings me such joy. Once I wrote on a thread
  • Arahant does not have aggregates
and some folks got upset with me. Reading this passage, it appears to me, that you would not disagree with me.
With love :candle:
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AlexBrains92
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Re: Is nibbāna dependently originated at the sense base?

Post by AlexBrains92 »

Ceisiwr wrote: Fri Oct 30, 2020 5:55 am ontological Idealism. I find little support for that in the suttas
:hug:
"If appeasement of desires is what is really blissful, 'desirelessness' as the appeasement of all desires would be the Supreme Bliss, and this in fact is what Nibbāna is." (Bhikkhu Kaṭukurunde Ñāṇananda)
form
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Re: Is nibbāna dependently originated at the sense base?

Post by form »

What about the line in the sutta, when there is no contact there is no suffering?
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Coëmgenu
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Re: Is nibbāna dependently originated at the sense base?

Post by Coëmgenu »

form wrote: Sat Oct 31, 2020 1:54 pm What about the line in the sutta, when there is no contact there is no suffering?
Can you quote it in context?
The thus come thus gone,
who has neither came nor went,
enthroned on men’s breath,

like the still turtle,
withdraws six appendages
and is clothed in light --

illuminating
the unilluminated
with three shining cures.
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Coëmgenu
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Location: Whitby, Canada

Re: Is nibbāna dependently originated at the sense base?

Post by Coëmgenu »

Ceisiwr wrote: Fri Oct 30, 2020 6:39 amBeyond that is ??? since any attempt to discuss it will have to rely on language and language relies upon nāmarūpa and the 6 sense bases, but that has been abandoned so its beyond the range of all conception and description.
But that's the thing, isn't it? It hasn't been abandoned, at least not in what you have suggested to us. We've been presented with a pondering to ponder, namely that the Tathāgata experiences contact with a discreet particularized entity called nibbāna and further that the contact ceases. You say, "Beyond that is ???," but actually we are able to connect the dots that you have already connected for us and know that "???" is nothingness. I would submit that saying "Beyond is ???" is just passing the puck once you've already set up the premise and letting someone else take the fall for voicing the conclusion already present in the premise.
The thus come thus gone,
who has neither came nor went,
enthroned on men’s breath,

like the still turtle,
withdraws six appendages
and is clothed in light --

illuminating
the unilluminated
with three shining cures.
form
Posts: 1780
Joined: Mon Nov 21, 2016 3:23 am

Re: Is nibbāna dependently originated at the sense base?

Post by form »

Coëmgenu wrote: Sat Oct 31, 2020 2:00 pm
form wrote: Sat Oct 31, 2020 1:54 pm What about the line in the sutta, when there is no contact there is no suffering?
Can you quote it in context?
Yes. Please wait. I need to check my notes on this reference.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Is nibbāna dependently originated at the sense base?

Post by Ceisiwr »

Coëmgenu wrote: Sat Oct 31, 2020 2:37 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Fri Oct 30, 2020 6:39 amBeyond that is ??? since any attempt to discuss it will have to rely on language and language relies upon nāmarūpa and the 6 sense bases, but that has been abandoned so its beyond the range of all conception and description.
But that's the thing, isn't it? It hasn't been abandoned, at least not in what you have suggested to us. We've been presented with a pondering to ponder, namely that the Tathāgata experiences contact with a discreet particularized entity called nibbāna and further that the contact ceases. You say, "Beyond that is ???," but actually we are able to connect the dots that you have already connected for us and know that "???" is nothingness. I would submit that saying "Beyond is ???" is just passing the puck once you've already set up the premise and letting someone else take the fall for voicing the conclusion already present in the premise.
Nibbana is cognised then all contact ceases, as far as I understand it. We can’t say it’s nothingness since that’s using reason and language and Nibbana is beyond reason and language. It’s totally beyond anything we can imagine, for imagination is conditioned. In Islam heaven has a distinctly human character. Rivers of flowing wine, fields and so forth. This is quite common. Religions tend to describe “the ultimate” in human terms, because it’s the only way they can concieve it with human minds. The Buddha is beyond all conditionality. His mind cognises that which is beyond the limitations of our human mind. He says no. This won’t work. Nibbana is beyond all of conditioned existence, so in saying it is eternal nothingness or eternal somethingness you have already slipped by. All we have to rely on are what is said in the texts by the Buddha. This is what makes the Master so extraordinary. So worthy of praise. So worthy of respect. The revealer of that Ancient City reached by that eternal path which was forgotten.
Last edited by Ceisiwr on Sun Nov 01, 2020 4:45 am, edited 4 times in total.
Saññāvirattassa na santi ganthā,
Paññāvimuttassa na santi mohā;
Saññañca diṭṭhiñca ye aggahesuṃ,
Te ghaṭṭayantā vicaranti loke”ti.


“For one detached from perception, there exist no ties,
for one by wisdom freed, no delusions are there,
but those who have grasped perceptions and views,
they wander the world stirring up strife."


Māgaṇḍiya Sutta
form
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Re: Is nibbāna dependently originated at the sense base?

Post by form »

Coëmgenu wrote: Sat Oct 31, 2020 2:00 pm
form wrote: Sat Oct 31, 2020 1:54 pm What about the line in the sutta, when there is no contact there is no suffering?
Can you quote it in context?
SN, book of causation, sutta 12, 26(6).
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Coëmgenu
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Re: Is nibbāna dependently originated at the sense base?

Post by Coëmgenu »

form wrote: Sun Nov 01, 2020 4:32 am
Coëmgenu wrote: Sat Oct 31, 2020 2:00 pm
form wrote: Sat Oct 31, 2020 1:54 pm What about the line in the sutta, when there is no contact there is no suffering?
Can you quote it in context?
SN, book of causation, sutta 12, 26(6).
Upavāṇasutta? I'm wondering what the "(6)" means.
The thus come thus gone,
who has neither came nor went,
enthroned on men’s breath,

like the still turtle,
withdraws six appendages
and is clothed in light --

illuminating
the unilluminated
with three shining cures.
form
Posts: 1780
Joined: Mon Nov 21, 2016 3:23 am

Re: Is nibbāna dependently originated at the sense base?

Post by form »

Coëmgenu wrote: Sun Nov 01, 2020 2:48 pm
form wrote: Sun Nov 01, 2020 4:32 am
Coëmgenu wrote: Sat Oct 31, 2020 2:00 pm
Can you quote it in context?
SN, book of causation, sutta 12, 26(6).
Upavāṇasutta? I'm wondering what the "(6)" means.
Just go to sutta 12,26. I dunno what the 26(6) means also, I just copied from my hard copy.
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Coëmgenu
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Re: Is nibbāna dependently originated at the sense base?

Post by Coëmgenu »

I was reading the Madhyamakālaṁkāra from Ven Śāntarakṣita, which outlines his famous "Yogācāra-Svatantrika-Mādhyamika" synthesis, and imagine my surprise when I encountered the exact same objection as I raise in this thread:
3. Even according to the approach of those who speak of the unconditioned as an object of knowledge for a cognition which arises out of meditation, it is not a unitary (entity), because these (unconditioned entities) would be related to a cognition which has phases (of before and after).
(Madhyamakālaṁkāra on "Neither unity nor diversity," stanza 3, translation K. Lipman)
The thus come thus gone,
who has neither came nor went,
enthroned on men’s breath,

like the still turtle,
withdraws six appendages
and is clothed in light --

illuminating
the unilluminated
with three shining cures.
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