What happens to consciousness/awareness when entering Paranirvana?

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Ceisiwr
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Re: What happens to consciousness/awareness when entering Paranirvana?

Post by Ceisiwr »

Vinc wrote: Wed Nov 18, 2020 2:21 pm
If Nirvana is something permanent, always existing independently, why should I pursue to "attain" it then, if it is already there?
You can't see it because of the foggy clouds of defilements which obscure it.
When there is no self, who or what "attains" Nirvana? Am I Nirvana?
To quote the Visuddhimagga:
Becoming’s Wheel reveals no known beginning;
No maker, no experiencer there;
Void with a twelvefold voidness, and nowhere
It ever halts; forever it is spinning.


There is no doer of a deed
Or one who reaps the deed’s result;
Phenomena alone flow on—
No other view than this is right.


The mental and material are really here,
But here there is no human being to be found,
For it is void and merely fashioned like a doll—
Just suffering piled up like grass and sticks.


Mere suffering exists, no sufferer is found;
The deeds are, but no doer of the deeds is there;
Nibbāna is, but not the man that enters it;
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/aut ... on2011.pdf
Again, why should I pursue it then, when I am it already?
"You" are not it. "I am" is a concept that arises due to clinging. When there is clinging there is the thought "I am". That is all it is:
... the eye faculty, the ear faculty, the nose faculty, the tongue faculty, the body faculty. There is, bhikkhus, the mind, there are mental phenomena, there is the element of ignorance. When the uninstructed worldling is contacted by a feeling born of ignorance-contact, ‘I am’ occurs to him; ‘I am this’ occurs to him; ‘I will be’ and ‘I will not be,’ and ‘I will consist of form’ and ‘I will be formless,’ and ‘I will be percipient’ and ‘I will be nonpercipient’ and ‘I will be neither percipient nor nonpercipient’—these occur to him.

“The five faculties remain right there, bhikkhus, but in regard to them the instructed noble disciple abandons ignorance and arouses true knowledge. With the fading away of ignorance and the arising of true knowledge, ‘I am’ does not occur to him; ‘I am this’ does not occur to him; ‘I will be’ and ‘I will not be,’ and ‘I will consist of form’ and ‘I will be formless,’ and ‘I will be percipient’ and ‘I will be nonpercipient’ and ‘I will be neither percipient nor nonpercipient’—these do not occur to him.”
https://suttacentral.net/sn22.47/en/bodhi
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Ceisiwr
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Re: What happens to consciousness/awareness when entering Paranirvana?

Post by Ceisiwr »

Vinc wrote: Wed Nov 18, 2020 2:21 pm
I am already convinced of the truth of the buddhist teachings, I know I can not understand it intellectually but I just want to intellectually understand as much as I can before bringing this understanding to a higher level.
Before you can practice the Dhamma you have to understand the Dhamma, so asking questions is good.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: What happens to consciousness/awareness when entering Paranirvana?

Post by Vinc »

Thank you for you answer.
But my actual question remains: When Samsara is endless, there will always be dukkha. Why then should "I" strive for eradicating "my" dukkha, when there is not even an acutal "me" and dukkha continues to exist nevertheless?
For pursuing enlightenment making sense to me Samsara has to have the potential to end. But is it right that Buddhism says it is endless?
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Ceisiwr
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Re: What happens to consciousness/awareness when entering Paranirvana?

Post by Ceisiwr »

Vinc wrote: Wed Nov 18, 2020 2:50 pm Thank you for you answer.
But my actual question remains: When Samsara is endless, there will always be dukkha. Why then should "I" strive for eradicating "my" dukkha, when there is not even an acutal "me" and dukkha continues to exist nevertheless?
For pursuing enlightenment making sense to me Samsara has to have the potential to end. But is it right that Buddhism says it is endless?
The Buddha didn't say it had no beginning nor that it has no end. He said it is without discoverable beginning, which is a different thing.

But my actual question remains: When Samsara is endless, there will always be dukkha. Why then should "I" strive for eradicating "my" dukkha, when there is not even an acutal "me" and dukkha continues to exist nevertheless?
There is dukkha. There is a desire to escape dukkha. Escaping dukkha is to make "I am" cease, which ceases when desire ceases. In order to get there you rely upon "I am" to get to the cessation of "I am" because "I am" is a disease. When awakening occurs and many years later when "you" die, upon the exhaustion of life, all that is felt will grow cold right there. As to what happens after, that is beyond language and reasoning:
Then Ven. Maha Kotthita went to Ven. Sariputta and, on arrival, exchanged courteous greetings with him. After an exchange of friendly greetings & courtesies, he sat to one side. As he was sitting there, he said to Ven. Sariputta, “With the remainderless stopping & fading of the six contact-media [vision, hearing, smell, taste, touch, & intellection] is it the case that there is anything else?”

[Sariputta:] “Don’t say that, my friend.”

[Maha Kotthita:] “With the remainderless stopping & fading of the six contact-media, is it the case that there is not anything else?”

[Sariputta:] “Don’t say that, my friend.”

[Maha Kotthita:] “…is it the case that there both is & is not anything else?”

[Sariputta:] “Don’t say that, my friend.”

[Maha Kotthita:] “…is it the case that there neither is nor is not anything else?”

[Sariputta:] “Don’t say that, my friend.”

[Maha Kotthita:] “Being asked if, with the remainderless stopping & fading of the six contact-media, there is anything else, you say, ‘Don’t say that, my friend.’ Being asked if … there is not anything else … there both is & is not anything else … there neither is nor is not anything else, you say, ‘Don’t say that, my friend.’ Now, how is the meaning of your words to be understood?”

[Sariputta:] “The statement, ‘With the remainderless stopping & fading of the six contact-media [vision, hearing, smell, taste, touch, & intellection] is it the case that there is anything else?’ objectifies non-objectification. The statement, ‘… is it the case that there is not anything else … is it the case that there both is & is not anything else … is it the case that there neither is nor is not anything else?’ objectifies non-objectification. However far the six contact-media go, that is how far objectification goes. However far objectification goes, that is how far the six contact media go. With the remainderless fading & stopping of the six contact-media, there comes to be the stopping, the allaying of objectification.
https://suttacentral.net/an4.173/en/thanissaro
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: What happens to consciousness/awareness when entering Paranirvana?

Post by Vinc »

Thank you. I am satisfied now.
I noticed multiple times already that in times of confusion it is beneficial to turn back to the fundamental teaching and recollect the 4 noble truths. In this case they actually answer my question: Without including the notion of a self they make clear that there is an end to suffering.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: What happens to consciousness/awareness when entering Paranirvana?

Post by Ceisiwr »

Vinc wrote: Wed Nov 18, 2020 3:36 pm Thank you. I am satisfied now.
I noticed multiple times already that in times of confusion it is beneficial to turn back to the fundamental teaching and recollect the 4 noble truths. In this case they actually answer my question: Without including the notion of a self they make clear that there is an end to suffering.
:thumbsup:
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
lostitude
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Re: What happens to consciousness/awareness when entering Paranirvana?

Post by lostitude »

SarathW wrote: Tue Nov 17, 2020 9:09 pm
Rising from the first jhana, he entered the second jhana. Rising from the second jhana, he entered the third jhana. Rising from the third jhana, he entered the fourth jhana. And, rising from the fourth jhana, the Blessed One immediately passed away.
Hello,

Sorry, just a quick off-topic question that probably doesn’t deserve a thread of its own: how did the authors of the suttas know about all these different mind states that the Buddha went through? did he destribe them out loud all the way up until his last breath?
Thanks.
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Post by sunnat »

an arhat in attendance, can't remember his name, had the ability to see these things
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Re: What happens to consciousness/awareness when entering Paranirvana?

Post by SarathW »

lostitude wrote: Wed Nov 18, 2020 11:03 pm
SarathW wrote: Tue Nov 17, 2020 9:09 pm
Rising from the first jhana, he entered the second jhana. Rising from the second jhana, he entered the third jhana. Rising from the third jhana, he entered the fourth jhana. And, rising from the fourth jhana, the Blessed One immediately passed away.
Hello,

Sorry, just a quick off-topic question that probably doesn’t deserve a thread of its own: how did the authors of the suttas know about all these different mind states that the Buddha went through? did he destribe them out loud all the way up until his last breath?
Thanks.
10. And the Venerable Ananda spoke to the Venerable Anuruddha, saying: "Venerable Anuruddha, the Blessed One has passed away."

"No, friend Ananda, the Blessed One has not passed away. He has entered the state of the cessation of perception and feeling."[59]

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .vaji.html
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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Assaji
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Re: What happens to consciousness/awareness when entering Paranirvana?

Post by Assaji »

Hello,
Vinc wrote: Tue Nov 17, 2020 8:13 pm if consciousness/awareness as the 5th skandha is impermanent (?), shouldn't it cease to exist when entering Paranirvana?
Parinirvana is considered something one can "enter" only in the Mahayana or Vajrayana. In Theravada the word "Parinibbana" has the same meaning as "Nibbana":

https://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=27551

If you are interested in what happens after the death of an Arahant - I would say that the vinnana-khandha ceases.
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Re: What happens to consciousness/awareness when entering Paranirvana?

Post by Assaji »

Vinc wrote: Tue Nov 17, 2020 8:13 pm But in SN 22.53 (https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html) the Buddha says:
"If a monk abandons passion for the property of consciousness, then owing to the abandonment of passion, the support is cut off, and there is no landing of consciousness. Consciousness, thus not having landed, not increasing, not concocting, is released. Owing to its release, it is steady. Owing to its steadiness, it is contented. Owing to its contentment, it is not agitated. Not agitated, he (the monk) is totally unbound right within. He discerns that 'Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for this world.'"
After Nibbāṇa, consciousness becomes untangled from mind-and-body, in other words, it becomes "unsupported" (appatiṭṭhita):

https://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=12515

When the consciousness has no support in mind-and-body, there's no cause for further rebirth, as described in the Mahanidana Sutta:
‘‘‘Nāmarūpapaccayā viññāṇa’nti iti kho panetaṃ vuttaṃ, tadānanda, imināpetaṃ pariyāyena veditabbaṃ, yathā nāmarūpapaccayā viññāṇaṃ. Viññāṇañca hi, ānanda, nāmarūpe patiṭṭhaṃ na labhissatha, api nu kho āyatiṃ jātijarāmaraṇaṃ dukkhasamudayasambhavo paññāyethā’’ti? ‘‘No hetaṃ, bhante’’.

"'From name-and-form as a requisite condition comes consciousness.' Thus it has been said. And this is the way to understand how from name-and-form as a requisite condition comes consciousness. If consciousness were not to gain a foothold in name-and-form, would a coming-into-play of the origination of birth, aging, death, and stress in the future be discerned?

"No, lord."
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
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Re: What happens to consciousness/awareness when entering Paranirvana?

Post by mikenz66 »

Thanks for posting that, Assaji. This confusion of parinibbāna with nibbāna element without residue (anupādisesanibbānadhātu) seems to be be very widespread.

From Assaji's link: https://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.p ... 27#p576527
Bhikkhu Bodhi wrote: In popular works on Buddhism, nibbāna plain and simple is often taken to signify Nibbāna as experienced in life, parinibbāna Nibbāna attained at death. This is a misinterpretation. ...
On one level I guess if doesn't really matter if one uses that common definition in casual discussion, but a phrase such as "nibbāna without residue" is more accurate, not much longer, and much clearer.

:heart:
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Lucas Oliveira
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Re: What happens to consciousness/awareness when entering Paranirvana?

Post by Lucas Oliveira »

Hi Assaji..
Assaji wrote: Thu Nov 19, 2020 7:08 pm
If you are interested in what happens after the death of an Arahant - I would say that the vinnana-khandha ceases.
that awareness ceases ..
Assaji wrote: Thu Nov 19, 2020 7:14 pm
After Nibbāṇa, consciousness becomes untangled from mind-and-body, in other words, it becomes "unsupported" (appatiṭṭhita):

When the consciousness has no support in mind-and-body, there's no cause for further rebirth, as described in the Mahanidana Sutta:
and does that awareness remain?

sorry, I didn't understand that part

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Re: What happens to consciousness/awareness when entering Paranirvana?

Post by confusedlayman »

Lucas Oliveira wrote: Thu Nov 19, 2020 7:42 pm Hi Assaji..
Assaji wrote: Thu Nov 19, 2020 7:08 pm
If you are interested in what happens after the death of an Arahant - I would say that the vinnana-khandha ceases.
that awareness ceases ..
Assaji wrote: Thu Nov 19, 2020 7:14 pm
After Nibbāṇa, consciousness becomes untangled from mind-and-body, in other words, it becomes "unsupported" (appatiṭṭhita):

When the consciousness has no support in mind-and-body, there's no cause for further rebirth, as described in the Mahanidana Sutta:
and does that awareness remain?

sorry, I didn't understand that part

:anjali:
Awareness cease
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Lucas Oliveira
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Re: What happens to consciousness/awareness when entering Paranirvana?

Post by Lucas Oliveira »

Ok

in the first quote it was about parinibbana

in the second quote about nibbana

:anjali:
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