Ajahn Brahmavamso's Dark Jhana

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
Pulsar
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Re: Ajahn Brahmavamso's Dark Jhana

Post by Pulsar »

My dear atipattoh:
I have to do better than what?
Isn't your gripe about
Dark Jhana and Nimitta?
I just read the headlines, I have not read the gory details.
But since you challenged me I looked up your first teacher... Now I understand OP and you better. You belong to the tradition that Bhante Sujato calls
Vipassanavada,
Vipassanavada is not something taught by Buddha. It is entirely based on commentaries. Ajhan Sona says that a Burmese leading monk came up with this method for laymen who did not have time for Samma Samadhi i.e. 4 buddhist jhanas.
What I gathered about your first teacher Sayalay Dipankara
In 1990, she was ordained as a Buddhist nun at Pak-Auk Tawya Monastery, Myanmar. Since then, she was trained to be a meditation teacher. Sayalay Dipankara is experienced in teaching any of the 40 Kamatthana as mentioned in the Visuddhi Magga (e.g. Anapanasati, Four Elements Meditation, Metta, Buddhanussati, Asubha, Marananussati and 8 Samapatthi (1st to 8th Jhana), Kasina meditation, etc) and Vipassana Meditation. 
According to this Pa-Auk bases his method on commentaries, and not on what Buddha taught.
Buddha the Founder has been replaced by Buddhaghosa, right?
How do your meditation centers manage to teach 8 jhanas? Are 8 jhanas reported in the sutta pitaka?
Four formless samapathis are reported in the sutta pitaka. But research has shown that these are not Buddha's teachings. The canon contains stuff taught by teachers other than Buddha. Thanks to hard working scholars some of us know what Buddha taught.
Buddha did not teach the two main Satipathana suttas found in the canon. That was assembled by the sangha at the second council.
I am pretty sure A. Brahms would not waste his time teaching 8 jhanas. (cause there are no 8 jhanas in the canon).
The Pa-Auk method appears to teach 8 jhanas. How do the formless samapathhis help in dismantling Depending Origination of Suffering?
Is not that the point of right samadhi? Are not the Pa-Auk mediation centers misleading the people who come to them in good faith, much like Goenka centers did or still do.
Be well! :candle:
Last edited by Pulsar on Wed Nov 25, 2020 2:23 am, edited 1 time in total.
atipattoh
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Re: Ajahn Brahmavamso's Dark Jhana

Post by atipattoh »

Pulsar wrote: Wed Nov 25, 2020 2:07 am
Derailing don't work on me.
Show me the sutta that i ask for, it is directly relevant to the OP.
atipattoh
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Re: Ajahn Brahmavamso's Dark Jhana

Post by atipattoh »

bksubhuti wrote: Wed Nov 25, 2020 1:39 am
:anjali: got it.

But some time i choose to be naughty :mrgreen:
If there is sutta reference that mention any one of it, existed; then you are wrong Bhante.
If not, you are right. :D
Pulsar
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Re: Ajahn Brahmavamso's Dark Jhana

Post by Pulsar »

atipattoh wrote
Show me the sutta that i ask for
What sutta are you asking for? a sutta saying Pa-Auk meditation method was taught by Buddha?
I cannot find that in the Pali canon.
I understand derailing does not work. We are both wasting our time here. Let us sit down to some
good old Metta meditation, instead of trying to teach folks useless and time wasting formless samapatthis.
What do those accomplish? Get one's foot in the door of Brahma worlds. What good would that do?
Afterwards directly descend into hell worlds.
Peace! :candle:
PS I regret getting involved in this thread. But some things are so outrageous, it is impossible to look the other way. Sutta Central locked the OP post, moment it saw the light of day. Makes sense. I would beg the moderators here to lock this post, so I would not be forced to waste my time on this thread any longer.
Last edited by Pulsar on Wed Nov 25, 2020 2:43 am, edited 1 time in total.
atipattoh
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Re: Ajahn Brahmavamso's Dark Jhana

Post by atipattoh »

A sutta that mention any of these
atipattoh wrote: Tue Nov 24, 2020 11:56 pm Pls, show me a sutta that The Buddha says "RupaJhana should not be practiced "
OR
The Buddha says that "the 5-factor(s) is/are RupaJhana"
Pulsar
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Re: Ajahn Brahmavamso's Dark Jhana

Post by Pulsar »

atipattoh wrote show me a sutta that says
RupaJhana should not be practiced
Why would Buddha say that? Anyone reading the Pali canon with any intelligence will realize that according to the 8-fold path only the 4 rupa jhanas should be practiced as Samma Samadhi.
A. Brahms, A Brahmali and A. Sujatho advice likewise. Anyone who says that they do not say so would be breaking the precept on right speech.
You ask about
"the 5-factor(s) is/are RupaJhana"
do you mean the 5 steps, where first jhana is broken up into two. This is not an A. Brahms invention. It is also found in the canon in a few suttas, not as frequently as the 4 stage Rupa Jhana.
What is the big fuss about? It is merely splitting the first rupa Jhana into two. Nothing is added and nothing is removed from the protocol given for the 4 rupa jhanas.
Let us just hope this is our last communication for the well being of both of us.
With love :candle:
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mikenz66
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Re: Ajahn Brahmavamso's Dark Jhana

Post by mikenz66 »

atipattoh wrote: Tue Nov 24, 2020 1:29 pm These are the relation that I deduce from the books that is related to A Chah’s lineage. Diplomatic or not, perhaps A Brahm student can confirm on it; i hope! And, has A Brahm change his definition 17 yrs after The-Jhana publication?
I'm not sure it is possible to "resolve" any of these things by reading quotes from Ajahn Chah and so on. My impression, from listening to various talks, is that Ajahn Chah did not teach a specific method directly to his students, but guided them depending on where they were and what they brought with them. According to Ajahn Brahm's accounts, he already had experienced Jhana in the UK (with the Samatha Trust) before coming to Thailand. I gather Ajahn Sumedho had been using a Zen text, and continued to use it after he met Ajahn Chah. Bhikkhu Sujato says that people get confused because they expect him to be teaching "Ajahn Brahm meditation", whereas he learned the metta aproach he teaches from a Thai teacher (it has some similarities with the Visuddhimagga approach, but is not identical). Other direct or indirect students of Ajahn Chah teach all kinds of stuff.

None of those teachers claim to be teaching a classical Vissudhimagga approach, so on one level one could ask: "Why is anyone expecting Ajahn Brahm to be teaching the same thing as Pa Auk Sayadaw?"

The reason that the approach of Vens Brahm, Sujato, and some others, is sometimes labelled "Visuddhimagga Style Jhana" (http://www.leighb.com/jhanantp.htm) is that they describe the jhanas as a deeply absorbed states, as opposed to the less absorbed states that some others teach (labelled "Sutta Style Jhana" in the above link), not because they are claiming to be teaching according to the Visuddhimagga. As Bhikkhu Sujato (who has read the Visuddhimagga Visuddhimagga for Sutta Lovers) says:
Sujato wrote:Lol, Ajahn Brahm has never even read the Visuddhimagga …
https://discourse.suttacentral.net/t/su ... nas/3317/9
Note: The question of "which jhana is the right jhana?" is way above my pay grade... :tongue: I'm merely laying out what I gather various teachers are teaching...

:heart:
Mike
Last edited by mikenz66 on Wed Nov 25, 2020 3:46 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Dhammanando
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Re: Ajahn Brahmavamso's Dark Jhana

Post by Dhammanando »

Pulsar wrote: Wed Nov 25, 2020 2:38 amPS I regret getting involved in this thread. But some things are so outrageous, it is impossible to look the other way. Sutta Central locked the OP post, moment it saw the light of day. Makes sense. I would beg the moderators here to lock this post, so I would not be forced to waste my time on this thread any longer.
There's no need for that at the moment. Discussion of right and wrong notions about jhāna is quite within Dhamma Wheel's terms of service.

:focus:
Yena yena hi maññanti,
tato taṃ hoti aññathā.


In whatever way they conceive it,
It turns out otherwise.
(Sn. 588)
atipattoh
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Re: Ajahn Brahmavamso's Dark Jhana

Post by atipattoh »

Pulsar wrote: Wed Nov 25, 2020 2:56 am atipattoh wrote show me a sutta that says
RupaJhana should not be practiced
Why would Buddha say that? Anyone reading the Pali canon with any intelligence will realize that according to the 8-fold path only the 4 rupa jhanas should be practiced as Samma Samadhi.
Fine, RupaJhana should be practised.
You ask about
"the 5-factor(s) is/are RupaJhana"
do you mean the 5 steps, where first jhana is broken up into two. This is not an A. Brahms invention. It is also found in the canon in a few suttas, not as frequently as the 4 stage Rupa Jhana.
What is the big fuss about? It is merely splitting the first rupa Jhana into two. Nothing is added and nothing is removed from the protocol given for the 4 rupa jhanas.
Read The-Jhana from A Brahm, if you still don't grasps the subject of the OP; then come back if you decide to.
Let us just hope this is our last communication for the well being of both of us.
With love :candle:
You call me out, and than you say this.
Dude, it is fine with me.

B Subhuti already advise me on this matter.

~~ Metta~~~
atipattoh
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Re: Ajahn Brahmavamso's Dark Jhana

Post by atipattoh »

mikenz66 wrote: Wed Nov 25, 2020 3:43 am :heart:
:thanks:

If i'm not mistaken, A Brahm had some "discussions" with Sayalay Dipankara, back in the late 90s. i think.

I was thinking that, that was his turning point from A Chah lineage. Guess, i got it wrong then.

:anjali:
bksubhuti
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Re: Ajahn Brahmavamso's Dark Jhana

Post by bksubhuti »

I only assert that Ajahn Brahmavamso and Pa-Auk Methods are different by night and day, literally.
Ajahn Brahmavamso does not follow the visudhimagga.
Pa-Auk method follows the visuddhimagga.

The visuddhimagga is vastly accepted as a Theravada text. If you want to call that sectarian.. so be it. This is a sectarian website the last I checked, Dhammawheel was a Theravada website and discussion group. On the other hand, EBT and the Suttanta sects are are not Theravada. Suttacentral is the place for such discussions. Get your terms right.

The best thing to do when on foreign ground (which you are), is to qualify your statement. "According to the suttanta sect" The Theravada / commentary / abhidhamma following sect does not need to do such since it is a Theravada website.
Last edited by bksubhuti on Wed Nov 25, 2020 5:52 am, edited 1 time in total.
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mikenz66
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Re: Ajahn Brahmavamso's Dark Jhana

Post by mikenz66 »

bksubhuti wrote: Wed Nov 25, 2020 5:35 am I only assert that Ajahn Brahmavamso and Pa-Auk Methods are different by night and day, literally.
The notion of commentaries being correct or not is another discussion topic.
Yes, it is useful to see how their descriptions differ. I just don't think it's surprising, given the quite different backgrounds.

On the other hand, in terms of depth of absorption, both are very different from the "sutta jhana" teachers listed in Leigh Brasington's website that I linked to above.

:heart:
Mike
form
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Re: Ajahn Brahmavamso's Dark Jhana

Post by form »

Most monks will not attempt to teach meditation one to one. It is tedious and too much involvement for them.
Pulsar
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Re: Ajahn Brahmavamso's Dark Jhana

Post by Pulsar »

JamesTheGiant wrote
You're being far too dramatic with the black doom descriptions of DARK JHĀNA.
Ajahn Brahm doesn't teach this horrifying Dark Jhana.
In my 4 years at his monastery, I've heard him talk many times about jhana, and he talks about nimitta as being a vital part of the state. Don't overdramatize.
I totally agree.
  • Comparing a system of meditation based on the 4 buddhist Jhanas (Taught by the Founder) with meditations based on Commentaries (taught by non-founders) is like comparing apples to oranges.
At the entrance to the meditation centers of the latter category, there should be a sign at the door saying.
  • Buyer Beware, the meditations taught here were not by the Buddha and do not comply with the 8-fold path presented by the Founder

Happy Thanksgiving! :candle:
bksubhuti
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Re: Ajahn Brahmavamso's Dark Jhana

Post by bksubhuti »

JamesTheGiant wrote
You're being far too dramatic with the black doom descriptions of DARK JHĀNA.
Ajahn Brahm doesn't teach this horrifying Dark Jhana.
In my 4 years at his monastery, I've heard him talk many times about jhana, and he talks about nimitta as being a vital part of the state. Don't overdramatize.
[/quote]
No light is "dark" the last time I checked. I could have called it
Black-Jhana.
No-light-jhana
No-perception-of-light-jhana would be the direct quote.
Piti-sukha-as-object-jhana would also work too, but it does not imply that light is gone.

Suttacentral immediately blocked the post within one hour and made it invisible. Then those who originally saw the post must have complained that it be visible again. Then it was then visible and locked. Then those who saw that must have complained and it was unlocked. There was now valid reason for any of the action that was taken. All the comments were peaceful, much more peaceful than here :) . The post was also notified as "to be taken down in 24hr unless someone flagged it. I guess someone complained and the post is still up on suttacentral.
When you google Ajahn Brahm and Pa-Auk Jhana in a private browser, the post comes up #2 after dhammawheel. My goal has been accomplished. Those who search for Ajahn Brahm and Jhana alone will get their happy bowl of unknowns. So my post only affects those who are comparing the two.

Suttanta Jhana is not really a topic for my post or this topic post here.
Locked