"Is it possible to accept Nagarjuna's argument and remain a Theravadan?"

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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AlexBrains92
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Re: "Is it possible to accept Nagarjuna's argument and remain a Theravadan?"

Post by AlexBrains92 »

Ceisiwr wrote: Fri Nov 27, 2020 11:22 pm
AlexBrains92 wrote: Fri Nov 27, 2020 11:12 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Fri Nov 27, 2020 11:00 pm

Well yes. By actuality I mean a real thing that exists apart from concepts and cannot be broken down further.
How can a thing, even actuality, be considered as ultimate if it's dependently originated?
Because it’s not a conceptual construct based on an amalgamation of many parts nor does it exist as concept only, but rather it is an indivisible phenomenon that exists apart from concept. It is from these actualities that we get concepts and conceptual constructs.
This concept-obsession is huge strawman.
Just answer my question, please.

«He does not construct even the subtlest apperception with regard
to what is seen, heard or thought; how would one conceptualise
that Brahmin in this world, who does not appropriate a view?

They do not fabricate, they do not prefer, they do not accept any
doctrine; the Brahmin cannot be inferred through virtue or vows,
such a person has gone to the far shore and does not fall back.»


- Snp 4.5 -
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Ceisiwr
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Re: "Is it possible to accept Nagarjuna's argument and remain a Theravadan?"

Post by Ceisiwr »

AlexBrains92 wrote: Fri Nov 27, 2020 11:25 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Fri Nov 27, 2020 11:22 pm
AlexBrains92 wrote: Fri Nov 27, 2020 11:12 pm

How can a thing, even actuality, be considered as ultimate if it's dependently originated?
Because it’s not a conceptual construct based on an amalgamation of many parts nor does it exist as concept only, but rather it is an indivisible phenomenon that exists apart from concept. It is from these actualities that we get concepts and conceptual constructs.
This concept-obsession is huge strawman.
Just answer my question, please.
It’s not a straw man since I’m not attacking an argument you never made. I’m stating my own position. A dhamma is an ultimate reality because it cannot be broken down any further under analysis and exists apart from concept. It being dependently originated means it is without permanence, self and is incapable of being satisfactory. It doesn’t mean it’s not a real thing when it momentarily exists, due to cause and conditions.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Coëmgenu
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Re: "Is it possible to accept Nagarjuna's argument and remain a Theravadan?"

Post by Coëmgenu »

There is only so much use in debating these things, because they are predicated on the insights of sages of the past, Madhyamaka or Theravādin, and it's really just a matter of who seems more convincing until a similar insight is born within. That being said, open dialogue is good. Ceisiwr has disavowed me of many misconceptions caused by wrongly conflating Pali Abhidhamma with Sarvāstivādin Abhidharma. I am not always in a position where I feel I "get" it more, but it is clear that what I said was wrong either way.

The Madhyamaka can't prove their assertions about nibbāna any more than the Ābhidharmika without circular recourse to texts that say "This is the X or Y view. The Buddha agrees." All the two can do is say to each other "This doesn't seem to make any sense." I currently avoid excessively criticizing Pāli Abhidhamma Buddhism specifically, but certainly have in the past, because I clearly don't get it because it seems to make absolutely no sense. Since it does actually make sense, as evidenced by Ābhidhammikas everywhere, I try not too be to hard on it. But, in truth, it just seems like a messier and not as well thought-through version of Sarvāstivāda. And people find Madhyamaka similarly incoherent.
Last edited by Coëmgenu on Sat Nov 28, 2020 1:59 am, edited 7 times in total.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
Spiny Norman
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Re: "Is it possible to accept Nagarjuna's argument and remain a Theravadan?"

Post by Spiny Norman »

I'm just wondering what difference any of this makes, practically speaking?
If for example a friend's cat playfully takes a chunk out of my hand?
Buddha save me from new-agers!
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Coëmgenu
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Re: "Is it possible to accept Nagarjuna's argument and remain a Theravadan?"

Post by Coëmgenu »

Spiny Norman wrote: Sat Nov 28, 2020 1:23 amI'm just wondering what difference any of this makes, practically speaking?
No, not practically. It only makes a difference ultimately speaking!

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

I'm sorry.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
Spiny Norman
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Re: "Is it possible to accept Nagarjuna's argument and remain a Theravadan?"

Post by Spiny Norman »

Coëmgenu wrote: Sat Nov 28, 2020 1:30 am
Spiny Norman wrote: Sat Nov 28, 2020 1:23 amI'm just wondering what difference any of this makes, practically speaking?
No, not practically. It only makes a difference ultimately speaking!

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

I'm sorry.
The cat will be pleased. :tongue:

(I love him really, despite the pain)
Buddha save me from new-agers!
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Coëmgenu
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Re: "Is it possible to accept Nagarjuna's argument and remain a Theravadan?"

Post by Coëmgenu »

So I think we can answer the OP's inquiry at this point, but anyone feel free to disagree with me.

As a "Theravādin," one can easily accept Ven Nagarjuna's arguments if you are willing to forsake the entire Abhidhammapiṭaka and all the commentaries of the Theras as well as the majority of the meditational instruction both of Ven Buddhaghosa and that which he transmits and does not invent himself. Kalupahana disagrees apparently, but only seems invested in reconciling Ven Nagarjuna to the Pali suttas, not the Abhidhamma etc.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: "Is it possible to accept Nagarjuna's argument and remain a Theravadan?"

Post by Ceisiwr »

Coëmgenu wrote: Sat Nov 28, 2020 1:49 am So I think we can answer the OP's inquiry at this point, but anyone feel free to disagree with me.

As a "Theravādin," one can easily accept Ven Nagarjuna's arguments if you are willing to forsake the entire Abhidhammapiṭaka and all the commentaries of the Theras as well as the majority of the meditational instruction both of Ven Buddhaghosa and that which he transmits and does not invent himself. Kalupahana disagrees apparently, but only seems invested in reconciling Ven Nagarjuna to the Pali suttas, not the Abhidhamma etc.
I’m curious, what kind of meditation is usually practiced in Madhyamaka?
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Coëmgenu
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Re: "Is it possible to accept Nagarjuna's argument and remain a Theravadan?"

Post by Coëmgenu »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Nov 28, 2020 2:03 amI’m curious, what kind of meditation is usually practiced in Madhyamaka?
I don't know. I don't know if there is a "pure" tradition of strictly Madhyamaka meditation still. Certainly IMO Vens Vimalāksa, Bhāvaviveka, Āryadeva, and Nāgārjuna meditated in a tradition. Hopefully I am an indirect heir to that via Tendai and Chan. I am a skeptical bastard, a former "new" atheist, so I vet my traditions brutally.

Rather than being a specific tradition of samādhi instruction, Madhyamaka is the backbone of all legitemate Mahāyāna meditation in my fallible opinion. When I read the Madhyamakaśāstra, I read "the true aspect of all dharmas" to be an absorption, an absorption identified as nibbāna as per the Buddha's sūtras. Obviously there are parallel traditions coming out of Yogācāra and Tathāgatagārbha that are in tension with Madhyamaka too.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: "Is it possible to accept Nagarjuna's argument and remain a Theravadan?"

Post by Ceisiwr »

Coëmgenu wrote: Sat Nov 28, 2020 2:11 am
Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Nov 28, 2020 2:03 amI’m curious, what kind of meditation is usually practiced in Madhyamaka?
I don't know. I don't know if there is a "pure" tradition of strictly Madhyamaka meditation still. Certainly IMO Vens Vimalāksa, Bhāvaviveka, Āryadeva, and Nāgārjuna meditated in a tradition. Hopefully I am an indirect heir to that via Tendai and Chan. I am a skeptical bastard, a former "new" atheist, so I vet my traditions brutally.

Rather than being a specific tradition of samādhi instruction, Madhyamaka is the backbone of all legitemate Mahāyāna meditation in my fallible opinion. When I read the Madhyamakaśāstra, I read "the true aspect of all dharmas" to be an absorption, an absorption identified as nibbāna as per the Buddha's sūtras. Obviously there are parallel traditions coming out of Yogācāra and Tathāgatagārbha that are in tension with Madhyamaka too.
Well, what kind of meditation do you do? Some form of shikantaza? I know little about Tendai practice.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Coëmgenu
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Re: "Is it possible to accept Nagarjuna's argument and remain a Theravadan?"

Post by Coëmgenu »

For instance, once you have over 40 bhūmis, your school has a problem with scholasticism run amok. Hence I can no longer, after quite a bit of time and energy invested, call myself a "Lotus Buddhist." The Lotus Sutra is great, but it's not the bee's knees of Mahayana sutras. I just saw your response, so I will incorporate it into this post with edits.
Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Nov 28, 2020 2:24 amWell, what kind of meditation do you do? Some form of shikantaza? I know little about Tendai practice.
So Tendai, the tradition I was briefly formally associated with, has two levels of practice, one as a layman and one as a priest. Obviously I am not a priest and have never been one but did once seriously consider ordination into the priesthood of Vairocana. I do the four mindfulness bases and breath-mindfulness under the guidance of a teacher. I am not a dhyānin. Pretty unexciting, eh? Ven Innen teaches based on Ven Zhiyi's "Six Subtle Dharma Gates." The Venerables at Cham Shan Toronto teach based on no texts that I can identify, but teach similarly at the basic level I am at. I am a perennial novice with regards to actual self-edification.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
SteRo
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Re: "Is it possible to accept Nagarjuna's argument and remain a Theravadan?"

Post by SteRo »

Is it possible to accept N's argument and remain a Theravadan?
Yes because experiening an argument as acceptable or refutable and the experience of being this or that are of same quality.
Cleared. αδόξαστος.
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Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta
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Re: "Is it possible to accept Nagarjuna's argument and remain a Theravadan?"

Post by Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta »

SteRo wrote: Sat Nov 28, 2020 5:02 am
Is it possible to accept N's argument and remain a Theravadan?
Yes because experiening an argument as acceptable or refutable and the experience of being this or that are of same quality.

That's deep.

:heart:
𝓑𝓾𝓭𝓭𝓱𝓪 𝓗𝓪𝓭 𝓤𝓷𝓮𝓺𝓾𝓲𝓿𝓸𝓬𝓪𝓵𝓵𝔂 𝓓𝓮𝓬𝓵𝓪𝓻𝓮𝓭 𝓣𝓱𝓪𝓽
  • Iᴅᴇᴀ ᴏꜰ Sᴏᴜʟ ɪs Oᴜᴛᴄᴏᴍᴇ ᴏꜰ ᴀɴ Uᴛᴛᴇʀʟʏ Fᴏᴏʟɪsʜ Vɪᴇᴡ
    V. Nanananda

𝓐𝓷𝓪𝓽𝓽ā 𝓜𝓮𝓪𝓷𝓼 𝓣𝓱𝓪𝓽 𝓣𝓱𝓮𝓻𝓮 𝓘𝓼
  • Nᴏ sᴜᴄʜ ᴛʜɪɴɢ ᴀs ᴀ Sᴇʟғ, Sᴏᴜʟ, Eɢᴏ, Sᴘɪʀɪᴛ, ᴏʀ Āᴛᴍᴀɴ
    V. Buddhādasa
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Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta
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Re: "Is it possible to accept Nagarjuna's argument and remain a Theravadan?"

Post by Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta »

Spiny Norman wrote: Fri Nov 27, 2020 7:24 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Fri Nov 27, 2020 7:20 pm
Spiny Norman wrote: Fri Nov 27, 2020 7:15 pm

Shunyata is a logical consequence of anatta. Just as anatta is a logical consequence of neti-neti.
Anatta means not-self. Suññatā means empty of self or what belongs to a self. It’s a logical leap from that to “empty of existence”. Something can be empty of self yet exist (atthi).
You're missing the point. Shunyata is not sunnata. Your trying to understand a Mahayana teaching by applying Theravada limitations.

Shunyata isn't lack of existence, it's lack of inherent existence.


In that case, is it right to say:
  • Shunyata is full of (acquired/extrinsic/external/extraneous/exterior/auxiliary/or ... added) existence. ... ?



:heart:
𝓑𝓾𝓭𝓭𝓱𝓪 𝓗𝓪𝓭 𝓤𝓷𝓮𝓺𝓾𝓲𝓿𝓸𝓬𝓪𝓵𝓵𝔂 𝓓𝓮𝓬𝓵𝓪𝓻𝓮𝓭 𝓣𝓱𝓪𝓽
  • Iᴅᴇᴀ ᴏꜰ Sᴏᴜʟ ɪs Oᴜᴛᴄᴏᴍᴇ ᴏꜰ ᴀɴ Uᴛᴛᴇʀʟʏ Fᴏᴏʟɪsʜ Vɪᴇᴡ
    V. Nanananda

𝓐𝓷𝓪𝓽𝓽ā 𝓜𝓮𝓪𝓷𝓼 𝓣𝓱𝓪𝓽 𝓣𝓱𝓮𝓻𝓮 𝓘𝓼
  • Nᴏ sᴜᴄʜ ᴛʜɪɴɢ ᴀs ᴀ Sᴇʟғ, Sᴏᴜʟ, Eɢᴏ, Sᴘɪʀɪᴛ, ᴏʀ Āᴛᴍᴀɴ
    V. Buddhādasa
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Re: "Is it possible to accept Nagarjuna's argument and remain a Theravadan?"

Post by Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta »

Ceisiwr wrote: Fri Nov 27, 2020 7:56 pm ...
I think it’s best to take a conservative approach to the Dhamma, not an innovative one. There are indeed other vādas, with varying degrees of doctrinal error. Out of all of the myriad traditions Theravāda is the best of the lot.
:goodpost:
𝓑𝓾𝓭𝓭𝓱𝓪 𝓗𝓪𝓭 𝓤𝓷𝓮𝓺𝓾𝓲𝓿𝓸𝓬𝓪𝓵𝓵𝔂 𝓓𝓮𝓬𝓵𝓪𝓻𝓮𝓭 𝓣𝓱𝓪𝓽
  • Iᴅᴇᴀ ᴏꜰ Sᴏᴜʟ ɪs Oᴜᴛᴄᴏᴍᴇ ᴏꜰ ᴀɴ Uᴛᴛᴇʀʟʏ Fᴏᴏʟɪsʜ Vɪᴇᴡ
    V. Nanananda

𝓐𝓷𝓪𝓽𝓽ā 𝓜𝓮𝓪𝓷𝓼 𝓣𝓱𝓪𝓽 𝓣𝓱𝓮𝓻𝓮 𝓘𝓼
  • Nᴏ sᴜᴄʜ ᴛʜɪɴɢ ᴀs ᴀ Sᴇʟғ, Sᴏᴜʟ, Eɢᴏ, Sᴘɪʀɪᴛ, ᴏʀ Āᴛᴍᴀɴ
    V. Buddhādasa
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