Impossible to get rid of ill will without renouncing

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
Post Reply
User avatar
confusedlayman
Posts: 4300
Joined: Fri Jun 21, 2019 12:16 am
Location: Human Realm (as of now)

Impossible to get rid of ill will without renouncing

Post by confusedlayman »

It is impossible to get rid of ill will or lust for xx and other sensual pleasure in lay life...

Even if he is in laylife he wont have any direct ownership or desire to do mundane worldy things and he should be taken care by others for rent, buying stuffs etc..

Hence renounciation and becoming monk is only way to eradicate anger root and lust root...
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
User avatar
Ceisiwr
Posts: 11082
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:36 am
Location: United Kingdom

Re: Impossible to get rid of ill will without renouncing

Post by Ceisiwr »

confusedlayman wrote: Sun Dec 06, 2020 3:40 pm It is impossible to get rid of ill will or lust for xx and other sensual pleasure in lay life...

Even if he is in laylife he wont have any direct ownership or desire to do mundane worldy things and he should be taken care by others for rent, buying stuffs etc..

Hence renounciation and becoming monk is only way to eradicate anger root and lust root...
You can still live a near monk-like life as a layman. Just keep the 8 precepts and when not working spend most of your time in meditation or Dhamma study. That will help to reduce ill will and lust. Who knows, you might even glimpse nibbāna too.
"Because of attachment to doctrines one approaches and refutes,
For those unattached, how can they dispute?
Not because self or no-self are said to be true,
He has only shaken off all harmful views."


Duṭṭhaṭṭhaka Sutta
Mr. Seek
Posts: 189
Joined: Sun Oct 25, 2020 5:45 am

Re: Impossible to get rid of ill will without renouncing

Post by Mr. Seek »

MN 71 Tevijjavaccha Sutta (Excerpt)

“Master Gotama, are there any laypeople who, without giving up the fetter of lay life, make an end of suffering when the body breaks up?”—“No, Vaccha.”—“But are there any laypeople who, without giving up the fetter of lay life, go to heaven when the body breaks up?”—“There’s not just one hundred laypeople, Vaccha, or two or three or four or five hundred, but many more than that who, without giving up the fetter of lay life, go to heaven when the body breaks up.”

MN 94 Ghoṭamukha Sutta (Excerpt)

“There are, brahmin, these two groups of people. What two? There’s one group of people who, being infatuated with jewels and earrings, seeks partners and children, male and female bondservants, fields and lands, gold and money. And there’s another group of people who, not being infatuated with jewels and earrings, has given up partner and children, male and female bondservants, fields and lands, gold and money, and goes forth from the lay life to homelessness.

“Now, brahmin, that person who doesn’t mortify either themselves or others, living without wishes, extinguished, cooled, experiencing bliss, having become holy in themselves, who does not torment themselves or others, both of whom want to be happy and recoil from pain—in which of these two groups of people do you usually find such a person?”—“I usually find such a person in the group that has gone forth from the lay life to homelessness.”

MN 14 Cūḷadukkhakkhandha Sutta (Excerpt)

“For a long time now, lord, I have understood the Dhamma taught by the Blessed One thus: ‘Greed… aversion… delusion is a defilement of the mind.’ Yet even though I understand the Dhamma taught by the Blessed One that greed… aversion… delusion is a defilement of the mind, there are still times when the quality of greed… aversion… delusion invades my mind and remains. The thought occurs to me: What quality is unabandoned within me so that there are times when the quality of greed… aversion… delusion invades my mind and remains?”

“Mahānāma, that very quality (i.e. greed, aversion, or delusion) is what is unabandoned within you so that there are times when the quality of greed… aversion… delusion invades your mind and remains. For if that quality was abandoned in you, you would not live the household life and would not partake of sensuality. It’s because that quality is not abandoned in you that you live the household life and partake of sensuality."

:(
Snp 5.11—"Having nothing, free of clinging: That is the island, there is no other."
User avatar
Ceisiwr
Posts: 11082
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:36 am
Location: United Kingdom

Re: Impossible to get rid of ill will without renouncing

Post by Ceisiwr »

Mr. Seek wrote: Sun Dec 06, 2020 4:04 pm ...
A "householder" is a mental state.
"Because of attachment to doctrines one approaches and refutes,
For those unattached, how can they dispute?
Not because self or no-self are said to be true,
He has only shaken off all harmful views."


Duṭṭhaṭṭhaka Sutta
User avatar
confusedlayman
Posts: 4300
Joined: Fri Jun 21, 2019 12:16 am
Location: Human Realm (as of now)

Re: Impossible to get rid of ill will without renouncing

Post by confusedlayman »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Dec 06, 2020 4:13 pm
Mr. Seek wrote: Sun Dec 06, 2020 4:04 pm ...
A "householder" is a mental state.
I define it as a state where there is greed to do new things and save money etc...
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
coconut
Posts: 1061
Joined: Tue Oct 13, 2020 8:10 am

Re: Impossible to get rid of ill will without renouncing

Post by coconut »

Householders in the suttas who became non-returners mimicked the monk lifestyle, they gave up their wives and were celibate.

Hatthaka gave up his four wives, but one stayed despite him becoming celibate.
2600htz
Posts: 602
Joined: Fri Aug 27, 2010 11:37 pm

Re: Impossible to get rid of ill will without renouncing

Post by 2600htz »

Hi:

An Anagami still can be functional in the lay life.
They can still work, pay rent, buy stuff, etc. Even being married, but without sex.

Regards.
User avatar
confusedlayman
Posts: 4300
Joined: Fri Jun 21, 2019 12:16 am
Location: Human Realm (as of now)

Re: Impossible to get rid of ill will without renouncing

Post by confusedlayman »

coconut wrote: Sun Dec 06, 2020 6:09 pm Householders in the suttas who became non-returners mimicked the monk lifestyle, they gave up their wives and were celibate.

Hatthaka gave up his four wives, but one stayed despite him becoming celibate.
Im following celebacy by restrain not because i dont have fetter of lust
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
User avatar
cappuccino
Posts: 5706
Joined: Thu Feb 11, 2016 1:45 am

Re: Impossible to get rid of ill will without renouncing

Post by cappuccino »

confusedlayman wrote: Sun Dec 06, 2020 3:40 pm It is impossible to get rid of ill will or lust in lay life…
well it's a condition since forever in the first place


hence in a sense impossible to begin with


except it's possible, because of this teaching
Art requires philosophy, just as philosophy requires art. Otherwise, what would become of beauty? ―Paul Gauguin
Art of the 21st Century
coconut
Posts: 1061
Joined: Tue Oct 13, 2020 8:10 am

Re: Impossible to get rid of ill will without renouncing

Post by coconut »

confusedlayman wrote: Sun Dec 06, 2020 8:23 pm
coconut wrote: Sun Dec 06, 2020 6:09 pm Householders in the suttas who became non-returners mimicked the monk lifestyle, they gave up their wives and were celibate.

Hatthaka gave up his four wives, but one stayed despite him becoming celibate.
Im following celebacy by restrain not because i dont have fetter of lust
Before you get to that point you need to verify that you have seen dependent origination, you know how to handle the 5 hindrances, how to apply the right antidote at the right time, you're always working on removing the 5 hindrances.

If you have sloth, then you do vipassana (3 characteristics), if you have restlessness then you work on samatha/anapanasati (calm). If you have lust, do asubha. If you have ill will do brahma viharas.

There's always something to work on.

See the "ones own mind" sutta https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

and you need to always read your mind and apply the proper antidote in that moment, as per the chefs cook sutta https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
sunnat
Posts: 685
Joined: Tue Apr 02, 2019 5:08 am

Re: Impossible to get rid of ill will without renouncing

Post by sunnat »

all from the Chachakka Sutta (six sets of six, bk bodhi translation) :


"Bhikkhus, that one should here and now make an end of suffering without abandoning the underlying tendency to lust for pleasant mind-feeling (or any other sense base feeling), without abolishing the underlying tendency to aversion towards mind-painful feeling, without extirpating the underlying tendency to ignorance in regard to neither-pleasant-nor-painful mind-feeling, without abandoning ignorance and arousing true knowledge - this is impossible."

...



Bhikkhus, that one shall here and now make an end of suffering by abandoning the underlying tendency to lust for pleasant mind-feeling (ditto), by abolishing the underlying tendency to aversion for painful mind-feeling, by extirpating the underlying tendency to ignorance in regard to neither-painful-nor-pleasant mind-feeling, by abandoning ignorance and arousing true knowledge - this is possible.



"Seeing thus, bhikkhus, a well-taught noble disciple becomes disenchanted with the eye (ditto), disenchanted with forms, disenchanted with eye-consciousness, disenchanted with eye-contact, disenchanted with eye-feeling, disenchanted with eye-craving."

...


"Being disenchanted, he becomes dispassionate. Through dispassion [his mind] is liberated...
User avatar
confusedlayman
Posts: 4300
Joined: Fri Jun 21, 2019 12:16 am
Location: Human Realm (as of now)

Re: Impossible to get rid of ill will without renouncing

Post by confusedlayman »

coconut wrote: Sun Dec 06, 2020 10:48 pm
confusedlayman wrote: Sun Dec 06, 2020 8:23 pm
coconut wrote: Sun Dec 06, 2020 6:09 pm Householders in the suttas who became non-returners mimicked the monk lifestyle, they gave up their wives and were celibate.

Hatthaka gave up his four wives, but one stayed despite him becoming celibate.
Im following celebacy by restrain not because i dont have fetter of lust
Before you get to that point you need to verify that you have seen dependent origination, you know how to handle the 5 hindrances, how to apply the right antidote at the right time, you're always working on removing the 5 hindrances.

If you have sloth, then you do vipassana (3 characteristics), if you have restlessness then you work on samatha/anapanasati (calm). If you have lust, do asubha. If you have ill will do brahma viharas.

There's always something to work on.

See the "ones own mind" sutta https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

and you need to always read your mind and apply the proper antidote in that moment, as per the chefs cook sutta https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
thanks. I think I need to do body repulsive meditation as my mind more dominant with lust
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
User avatar
confusedlayman
Posts: 4300
Joined: Fri Jun 21, 2019 12:16 am
Location: Human Realm (as of now)

Re: Impossible to get rid of ill will without renouncing

Post by confusedlayman »

sunnat wrote: Mon Dec 07, 2020 12:02 am all from the Chachakka Sutta (six sets of six, bk bodhi translation) :


"Bhikkhus, that one should here and now make an end of suffering without abandoning the underlying tendency to lust for pleasant mind-feeling (or any other sense base feeling), without abolishing the underlying tendency to aversion towards mind-painful feeling, without extirpating the underlying tendency to ignorance in regard to neither-pleasant-nor-painful mind-feeling, without abandoning ignorance and arousing true knowledge - this is impossible."

...



Bhikkhus, that one shall here and now make an end of suffering by abandoning the underlying tendency to lust for pleasant mind-feeling (ditto), by abolishing the underlying tendency to aversion for painful mind-feeling, by extirpating the underlying tendency to ignorance in regard to neither-painful-nor-pleasant mind-feeling, by abandoning ignorance and arousing true knowledge - this is possible.



"Seeing thus, bhikkhus, a well-taught noble disciple becomes disenchanted with the eye (ditto), disenchanted with forms, disenchanted with eye-consciousness, disenchanted with eye-contact, disenchanted with eye-feeling, disenchanted with eye-craving."

...


"Being disenchanted, he becomes dispassionate. Through dispassion [his mind] is liberated...
:goodpost:
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
coconut
Posts: 1061
Joined: Tue Oct 13, 2020 8:10 am

Re: Impossible to get rid of ill will without renouncing

Post by coconut »

confusedlayman wrote: Mon Dec 07, 2020 9:44 am
coconut wrote: Sun Dec 06, 2020 10:48 pm
confusedlayman wrote: Sun Dec 06, 2020 8:23 pm

Im following celebacy by restrain not because i dont have fetter of lust
Before you get to that point you need to verify that you have seen dependent origination, you know how to handle the 5 hindrances, how to apply the right antidote at the right time, you're always working on removing the 5 hindrances.

If you have sloth, then you do vipassana (3 characteristics), if you have restlessness then you work on samatha/anapanasati (calm). If you have lust, do asubha. If you have ill will do brahma viharas.

There's always something to work on.

See the "ones own mind" sutta https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

and you need to always read your mind and apply the proper antidote in that moment, as per the chefs cook sutta https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
thanks. I think I need to do body repulsive meditation as my mind more dominant with lust

Combine it with anapanasati because lust and hatred are rooted in Restlessness. So anything with restlessness must be combined with anapanasati and samatha.

Craving sleep is rooted in sloth, the Buddha says when the mind is sluggish one should develop the awakening factor of investigating, which is vipassana (seeing the 3 characteristics) to remove craving.

So basically if you have restlessness you need to calm down first, and then do vipassana like Asubha.
Post Reply