What experiences Nirvana?

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sa16en
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What experiences Nirvana?

Post by sa16en »

What apprehends Nirvana, if consciousness and awareness are just aggregates. How can something be apprehended without sentience?
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cappuccino
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Re: What experiences Nirvana?

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sa16en wrote: Thu Dec 10, 2020 9:33 pm What apprehends Nirvana, if consciousness and awareness are just aggregates. How can something be apprehended without sentience?
consciousness becomes unconditioned


not annihilated, not destroyed
SarathW
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Re: What experiences Nirvana?

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cappuccino wrote: Thu Dec 10, 2020 9:59 pm
sa16en wrote: Thu Dec 10, 2020 9:33 pm What apprehends Nirvana, if consciousness and awareness are just aggregates. How can something be apprehended without sentience?
consciousness becomes unconditioned


not annihilated, not destroyed
This answer seems incorrect.
There is no Sutta support for your statement.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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Ceisiwr
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Re: What experiences Nirvana?

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sa16en wrote: Thu Dec 10, 2020 9:33 pm What apprehends Nirvana, if consciousness and awareness are just aggregates. How can something be apprehended without sentience?
The traditional explanation is that Nibbana is an external dhamma which is cognised at the mind base by consciousness.
“The mental and material are really here,
But here there is no human being to be found,
For it is void and merely fashioned like a doll—
Just suffering piled up like grass and sticks.”


Visuddhimagga
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cappuccino
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Re: What experiences Nirvana?

Post by cappuccino »

SarathW wrote: Thu Dec 10, 2020 10:02 pm This answer seems incorrect.
There is no Sutta support for your statement.
On Self, No Self, and Not-self


:candle:
sa16en
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Re: What experiences Nirvana?

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Ceisiwr wrote: Thu Dec 10, 2020 10:03 pm
sa16en wrote: Thu Dec 10, 2020 9:33 pm What apprehends Nirvana, if consciousness and awareness are just aggregates. How can something be apprehended without sentience?
The traditional explanation is that Nibbana is an external dhamma which is cognised at the mind base by consciousness.
Apologies, I'm not well versed in Buddhist terminology and am not a big brain. What does external dhamma mean specifically and how is this philosophically justified? And how can Nibbana be 'cognised at the mind base by consciousness' when both mind and consciousness are aggregates?
SarathW
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Re: What experiences Nirvana?

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sa16en wrote: Thu Dec 10, 2020 9:33 pm What apprehends Nirvana, if consciousness and awareness are just aggregates. How can something be apprehended without sentience?
The living person experiences the Nibbana, in the same way, a sick person experience comfort after he cured of his sickness.
After Parinibbana (death of an Arahant) there is no arising of five aggregate including consciousness.
There is not birth again.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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cappuccino
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Re: What experiences Nirvana?

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SarathW wrote: Thu Dec 10, 2020 10:13 pm After Parinibbana (death of an Arahant) there is no arising of five aggregate including consciousness.
There is not birth again.
this is No Self


see above link
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NuanceOfSuchness
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Re: What experiences Nirvana?

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sa16en wrote: Thu Dec 10, 2020 9:33 pm What apprehends Nirvana, if consciousness and awareness are just aggregates. How can something be apprehended without sentience?
Nothing apprehends Nirvana. These are terms of language used as a conventional way to illustrate that an event has taken place. Language is funny like that. Language has too much solidity when trying to outline something that doesn't have an outline; it is designed to contain; it provides a perimeter to assist in the understanding of worldly forms. That is the function of language.

But of course, we can use ambiguous and spacious terms like suchness, consciousness and spirit and make the whole thing deliberately slippery in a Zen kind of manner.
sa16en
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Re: What experiences Nirvana?

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SarathW wrote: Thu Dec 10, 2020 10:13 pm
sa16en wrote: Thu Dec 10, 2020 9:33 pm What apprehends Nirvana, if consciousness and awareness are just aggregates. How can something be apprehended without sentience?
The living person experiences the Nibbana, in the same way, a sick person experience comfort after he cured of his sickness.
After Parinibbana (death of an Arahant) there is no arising of five aggregate including consciousness.
There is not birth again.
So what experiences Parinibbana? Or are you suggesting annhilationism with extra steps?
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cappuccino
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Re: What experiences Nirvana?

Post by cappuccino »

NuanceOfSuchness wrote: Thu Dec 10, 2020 10:15 pm Nothing apprehends Nirvana.
one apprehends while alive


death is not annihilation


hence one apprehends while dead
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Ceisiwr
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Re: What experiences Nirvana?

Post by Ceisiwr »

sa16en wrote: Thu Dec 10, 2020 10:10 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Thu Dec 10, 2020 10:03 pm
sa16en wrote: Thu Dec 10, 2020 9:33 pm What apprehends Nirvana, if consciousness and awareness are just aggregates. How can something be apprehended without sentience?
The traditional explanation is that Nibbana is an external dhamma which is cognised at the mind base by consciousness.
Apologies, I'm not well versed in Buddhist terminology and am not a big brain. What does external dhamma mean specifically and how is this philosophically justified? And how can Nibbana be 'cognised at the mind base by consciousness' when both mind and consciousness are aggregates?
As in Nibbana is an unconditioned element that is separate from mind and form. Why do you think Nibbana can’t be cognised by consciousness? If you can’t become aware of it, how can anyone know of it? In other words, I don’t understand the basis of your aggregate objection?
“The mental and material are really here,
But here there is no human being to be found,
For it is void and merely fashioned like a doll—
Just suffering piled up like grass and sticks.”


Visuddhimagga
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NuanceOfSuchness
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Re: What experiences Nirvana?

Post by NuanceOfSuchness »

cappuccino wrote: Thu Dec 10, 2020 10:16 pm
NuanceOfSuchness wrote: Thu Dec 10, 2020 10:15 pm Nothing apprehends Nirvana.
one apprehends while alive


death is not annihilation


hence one apprehends while dead
One apprehends only trinkets and baubles - the learned image of enlightenment from whence the tradition you choose to indoctrinate yourself henceforth.
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cappuccino
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Re: What experiences Nirvana?

Post by cappuccino »

NuanceOfSuchness wrote: Thu Dec 10, 2020 10:21 pm One apprehends only trinkets and baubles
:shrug:
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Ceisiwr
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Re: What experiences Nirvana?

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sa16en wrote: Thu Dec 10, 2020 10:15 pm
So what experiences Parinibbana? Or are you suggesting annhilationism with extra steps?
Questions about final Nibbana are essentially unanswerable since it’s beyond all concepts and language. It’s not annihilationism since that involves an idea of a self, but no self exists. It’s not eternal heaven either:
Then Ven. Maha Kotthita went to Ven. Sariputta and, on arrival, exchanged courteous greetings with him. After an exchange of friendly greetings & courtesies, he sat to one side. As he was sitting there, he said to Ven. Sariputta, “With the remainderless stopping & fading of the six contact-media [vision, hearing, smell, taste, touch, & intellection] is it the case that there is anything else?”

[Sariputta:] “Don’t say that, my friend.”

[Maha Kotthita:] “With the remainderless stopping & fading of the six contact-media, is it the case that there is not anything else?”

[Sariputta:] “Don’t say that, my friend.”

[Maha Kotthita:] “…is it the case that there both is & is not anything else?”

[Sariputta:] “Don’t say that, my friend.”

[Maha Kotthita:] “…is it the case that there neither is nor is not anything else?”

[Sariputta:] “Don’t say that, my friend.”

[Maha Kotthita:] “Being asked if, with the remainderless stopping & fading of the six contact-media, there is anything else, you say, ‘Don’t say that, my friend.’ Being asked if … there is not anything else … there both is & is not anything else … there neither is nor is not anything else, you say, ‘Don’t say that, my friend.’ Now, how is the meaning of your words to be understood?”

[Sariputta:] “The statement, ‘With the remainderless stopping & fading of the six contact-media [vision, hearing, smell, taste, touch, & intellection] is it the case that there is anything else?’ objectifies non-objectification. The statement, ‘… is it the case that there is not anything else … is it the case that there both is & is not anything else … is it the case that there neither is nor is not anything else?’ objectifies non-objectification. However far the six contact-media go, that is how far objectification goes. However far objectification goes, that is how far the six contact media go. With the remainderless fading & stopping of the six contact-media, there comes to be the stopping, the allaying of objectification.
https://suttacentral.net/an4.173/en/thanissaro
“The mental and material are really here,
But here there is no human being to be found,
For it is void and merely fashioned like a doll—
Just suffering piled up like grass and sticks.”


Visuddhimagga
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