Can anger arise without self-views?

[DooDoot]

Dear DW forum

I read the following Buddhist Evangelism on the internet:

As long as you still see the "I", "mine", "myself" involved in moments of anger, restlessness, and even peace, there'll never be a state of real peace. Drop the "I", "mine", "myself", simply observe the arising of anger, restlessness, AND of peace, then real peace will come. Sorta like you're trying to chase your own shadow. The harder you try to chase after it, the more it'll run away from you. But the moment you stop and settle down, it'll also stop and stay with you!

1. Is it possible to have the arising of anger without "I", "mine", "myself", etc; and also without "them", "him", "her", "other", etc ??

2. Also, is it possible for a "you" to drop "I", "mine" & "myself"? Or is the above quote similar to Vachagotta's befuddlement in SN 44.10 ??

Please discuss.

[dharmacorps]

Some of the Thai Forest ajahns have said that they still experience anger. Ajahn Chah said something like "the package is delivered but nobody picks it up".

[pegembara]

Most likely it can arise but without self-view, it doesn't stay long. Perhaps more akin to irritation than anger.

Buddha: "That being so, Ananda, remember this too as a wonderful and marvellous quality of the Tathagata: Here, Ananda, for the Tathagata feelings are known as they arise, as they are present, as they disappear; perceptions are known as they arise, as they are present, as they disappear; thoughts are known as they arise, as they are present, as they disappear. Remember this too, Ananda, as a wonderful and marvellous quality of the Tathagata."

http://www.suttas.com/mn-123-acchariya- ... llous.html

[DooDoot]

Most likely it can arise but without self-view, it doesn't stay long. Perhaps more akin to irritation than anger.

I imagine a self-view must cause the irritation. I cannot imagine one set of elements/aggregates would get irritated at another set of elements/aggregates.

Buddha: "That being so, Ananda, remember this too as a wonderful and marvellous quality of the Tathagata: Here, Ananda, for the Tathagata feelings are known as they arise, as they are present, as they disappear; perceptions are known as they arise, as they are present, as they disappear; thoughts are known as they arise, as they are present, as they disappear. Remember this too, Ananda, as a wonderful and marvellous quality of the Tathagata."

http://www.suttas.com/mn-123-acchariya- ... llous.html

The above sounds irrelevant because it does not refer to defiled thoughts.

[DNS]

I don't think so.

Common sayings leading to anger:
"I was abused"
"I was robbed"
"I was disrespected"

All involve self-views. No self views, no anger. An arahant has eliminated all forms of anger and ill-will.

Another question might be: Can anger not arise with there still being a self-view?

An anagami has also eliminated anger and ill-will, so apparently so.

[DooDoot]

Another question might be: Can anger not arise with there still being a self-view?

An anagami has also eliminated anger and ill-will, so apparently so.

[confusedlayman]

anger is due to craving/aversion and craving/aversion is due to self view...

so it is impossible to not get angry in first place when self view is there

as long as self view is there, the underlying tendency to anger is always there and can pop up anytime..

when no self view, underlying tendency is not there and anger dont arise in first place as rooted out completely.. anger is permanently non existent for someone this level...

[Alino]

One will experiance anger and desire as unpleasant feeling of pressure in the chest zone. He will see it arising, remaining and ceasing without identifying with it, owning it, following it, being irritated by it, ignoring it.

He will see : here is anger or desire unpleasant feeling, here is pure citta undisturbed by it, there is no contact between them, mind is not deluded by this feeling, feeling is just feeling.

5 khandhas still here, underlying (anusaya) tendencies still here, what is absent is one who own it.

How one can own something that he have never invited or generated voluntarily, something that pops up spontaneously according to it's own conditions?

Buddha said something like: he observes mind with anger as mind with anger, mind with desire as mind with desire, etc...

But it seems that anusaya tendencies are eliminated by Arahant.

As said Ajahn Nianomoli : from putthujana point of view ones mind will be pure and clear, from the point of view of an Arahant one is still experiancing unpleasant feeling in chest.

[pegembara]

Most likely it can arise but without self-view, it doesn't stay long. Perhaps more akin to irritation than anger.

I imagine a self-view must cause the irritation. I cannot imagine one set of elements/aggregates would get irritated at another set of elements/aggregates.

Buddha: "That being so, Ananda, remember this too as a wonderful and marvellous quality of the Tathagata: Here, Ananda, for the Tathagata feelings are known as they arise, as they are present, as they disappear; perceptions are known as they arise, as they are present, as they disappear; thoughts are known as they arise, as they are present, as they disappear. Remember this too, Ananda, as a wonderful and marvellous quality of the Tathagata."

http://www.suttas.com/mn-123-acchariya- ... llous.html

The above sounds irrelevant because it does not refer to defiled thoughts.

This bothersomeness(feeling fed-up) borders on irritation to me. Not as strong as feeling angry as such. And yet cannot be regarded as self-view or defiled thoughts since it is the Buddha we are referring to. Not one set of aggregates getting irritated with another but just a feeling or sensation arising and ceasing as in the feeling just the feeling.

Most people don't get angry when a fly buzzes once around their ears. Repeated buzzing is another matter due to papanca or mental proliferation.
Another way of putting it - Can an unpleasant feeling(not anger but irritation) arise without self-views?

"This Dhamma that I have attained is deep, hard to see, hard to realize, peaceful, refined, beyond the scope of conjecture, subtle, to-be-experienced by the wise. But this generation delights in attachment, is excited by attachment, enjoys attachment. For a generation delighting in attachment, excited by attachment, enjoying attachment, this/that conditionality and dependent co-arising are hard to see. This state, too, is hard to see: the resolution of all fabrications, the relinquishment of all acquisitions, the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding. And if I were to teach the Dhamma and if others would not understand me, that would be tiresome for me, troublesome for me."

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

What, bhikkhus, is the Nibbāna-element with residue left? Here a bhikkhu is an arahant, one whose taints are destroyed, the holy life fulfilled, who has done what had to be done, laid down the burden, attained the goal, destroyed the fetters of being, completely released through final knowledge. However, his five sense faculties remain unimpaired, by which he still experiences what is agreeable and disagreeable and feels pleasure and pain. It is the extinction of attachment, hate, and delusion in him that is called the Nibbāna-element with residue left.

[SteRo]

Dear DW forum

I read the following Buddhist Evangelism on the internet:

As long as you still see the "I", "mine", "myself" involved in moments of anger, restlessness, and even peace, there'll never be a state of real peace. Drop the "I", "mine", "myself", simply observe the arising of anger, restlessness, AND of peace, then real peace will come. Sorta like you're trying to chase your own shadow. The harder you try to chase after it, the more it'll run away from you. But the moment you stop and settle down, it'll also stop and stay with you!

1. Is it possible to have the arising of anger without "I", "mine", "myself", etc; and also without "them", "him", "her", "other", etc ??

without "I", "mine", due to quotation marks obviously refers to conceptuality. Lacking this conceptual belief according to theravada doctrine on a level below non-returner, it is possible that anger arises.

2. Also, is it possible for a "you" to drop "I", "mine" & "myself"?

Ultimately this is not possible because there being no "I" and no "you" but in terms of conventional speech "you" may drop "I", "mine" & "myself" as "I" may drop "I", "mine" & "myself".

[coconut]

Playing word games with pronouns doesn't make one enlightened.

Giving up what is stressful does.

Identity view means making a meaning of things.

We do things because they create meaning, it's a form of story telling. Like little kids playing with plastic figurines and creating scenarios and outcomes with their imagination.

It's imagination that creates meaning, otherwise everything is just an object made of the 4 elements.

If you see things as they really are, instead of imagination, you will not find them amusing. Dancing is just a form of meaningless mechanical movements. And as stoic Emporer Marcus Aurelius said "sex is the friction of a piece of gut which follows in the expulsion of mucus".

Once you stop playing with the form-aggregate, you put it down and leave it alone, you are no longer a child using his imagination.

Leave food alone, toys alone, people alone. Stop using the 5 aggregates for your amusement to fulfil your fantasies.

Once you stop doing that, you can no longer be angry because you no longer care about your toys since you see them as they really are: meaningless.

[Mahabrahma]

How come there are no toys of Buddhist Monks? That would be so cool. Kids would get less angry at eachother and play Buddha Dhamma. Oh wait, we have little Statues that kids probably shouldn't treat as toys.

[coconut]

How come there are no toys of Buddhist Monks? That would be so cool. Kids would get less angry at eachother and play Buddha Dhamma.

I guess some people just can't understand. For the same reason we don't give kids toys of marijuanna and cocaine, it's bad.

Imagination is just an extension of conceit. People watch movies because they want to imagine themselves in that scenario, hence they are emotionally invested in the outcome of the movie.

If you don't care about something, you won't get emotionally invested in it, and therefore you cannot get angry at what happens to it.

Toys and "Playing" simply means identifying with something, i.e. putting ourselves in a created fictional fantasy, roleplaying.

[Mahabrahma]

I think giving kids a proper doll of the Buddha to play with is a way to keep them off marijuana and cocaine. Or some Spiritual object of veneration. Kids can be very Spiritual but we just have to teach them.

And it's better to be angry at evil and do something to stop it than being passive and therefore cowardly in the process, letting it go on. You know, you know.

[Bundokji]

Questions about arising and non-arising seem to be associated with self view because it implies continuity which cannot be imagined without the medium of the self.