Non-delight

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
Alino
Posts: 97
Joined: Thu Oct 01, 2020 3:15 pm

Re: Non-delight

Post by Alino »

Padipa wrote: Fri Jan 08, 2021 10:13 pm
Alino wrote: Fri Jan 08, 2021 4:48 am
Padipa wrote: Fri Jan 08, 2021 1:28 am Delight does have a functional place, though one must be mindful of the danger inherent in it. It is only when delight is connected to conditioning, thereby becoming part of the circle of suffering, that it is an issue. But one can delight without inviting attachment to the experience.
I dont think that it is possible to delight without attachement.
If one delight in senses - one delight in senses...

Can you please give an exemple of delight without attachnent?
Sure--I can give you all you want. For example, I always delight upon the experience of a sunrise or sunset: the experience has never been accompanied by attachment. It is beautiful so much more, because it is one of a kind and one of a moment, not to be repeated for me ever again--as far as my expectations go. More generally, I delight in life, without attachment, because of Death's beauty: without death, life is meaningless. I delight in my uniqueness, being a miniscule, finite part of an infinite process. I delight in the beauty of the Earth, from space, precisely because I know our Sun will incinerate it when it becomes a Red Giant--it is delight, without attachment, because I understand the Earth's role is as limited and finite as mine, so the experience is without attachment, because I fathom its transience.

I would delight in meeting a Buddha (as the Dhammapada makes clear) precisely because the meeting is such a rare happening. Do my exaples help you to understand my ability to delight, without attachment? I am rushed, on a 10 minute break from work. I could do much better if you request me to do so. jt
And if tomorrow you lose your eyes or you die - will you sorrow or being exactly as happy as before?
We don't live Samsara, Samsara is living us...

"Form, feelings, perceptions, formations, consciousness - don't care about us, we don't exist for them"
SteRo
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Re: Non-delight

Post by SteRo »

Padipa wrote: Fri Jan 08, 2021 1:28 am But one can delight without inviting attachment to the experience.
You are right, however the way the term "delight" is often used in the doctrine, it might be better to use the term "bliss" or the term "joy" when there is no coarse attachment. It must be coarse attachment you are referring to because even in jhanas there is subtle attachment.

Actually the knowledge of impermanence can even increase "bliss" or "joy".
Exhaling अ and inhaling धीः amounts to བྷྲཱུཾ་བི་ཤྭ་བི་ཤུད་དྷེ It's definitely not science but science may provide guidelines nevertheless.
Alino
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Joined: Thu Oct 01, 2020 3:15 pm

Re: Non-delight

Post by Alino »

SteRo wrote: Sat Jan 09, 2021 9:50 am
Padipa wrote: Fri Jan 08, 2021 1:28 am But one can delight without inviting attachment to the experience.
You are right, however the way the term "delight" is often used in the doctrine, it might be better to use the term "bliss" or the term "joy" when there is no coarse attachment. It must be coarse attachment you are referring to because even in jhanas there is subtle attachment.

Actually the knowledge of impermanence can even increase "bliss" or "joy".
As i understand it:

- "delight" is about "taking pleasure", possessing things, taking them, holding them, coming in contact with them.
- "bliss" and "joy" are more kind of "intense sense of lightness", it's about relinquishing things, putting havy things down, that make you feel light and easy, you feel joy and bliss.

Or course it's all about semantics, but I dont thing that delight = joy, as heaviness is not the lightness...
Imho🙏
We don't live Samsara, Samsara is living us...

"Form, feelings, perceptions, formations, consciousness - don't care about us, we don't exist for them"
chownah
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Re: Non-delight

Post by chownah »

What about rapture? Where does it fit into the delight, joy, bliss, happiness spectrum?

And which of these is replaced with equanimity (if any of them are replaced) and which are not?
chownah
Alino
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Joined: Thu Oct 01, 2020 3:15 pm

Re: Non-delight

Post by Alino »

chownah wrote: Sat Jan 09, 2021 2:11 pm What about rapture? Where does it fit into the delight, joy, bliss, happiness spectrum?

And which of these is replaced with equanimity (if any of them are replaced) and which are not?
chownah
For me, joy and rapture have same nature but different amplitude. Rapture is more powerfull joy, or more intense sense of lightness, which can culminate in piti that give you sense of livitation, that much it make you feel light...

As I understand it, equanimity is born out of happiness (sukkha). Happiness is the sense of wholeness, of completeness, of fullness, of contentment.
Someone who have all that he needs is said to be happy. A happy mind is a still mind, it dont wanders here and there, it is stable and peacefull. Why would he move anywhere if he is already happy?
So being happy, pleasant, blissfull and stable, it reaches a point of stability, like a centre of a circle, or the peak of the mountain. From that centre it experiences both left right up down before behind from the same distance, centre is equanimous to any point on the circle, from the top of the mountain all directions are equally clearly and openly seen, nothing is hide, nothing to be afraid of, nothing is a threat.

Imho 🙏
We don't live Samsara, Samsara is living us...

"Form, feelings, perceptions, formations, consciousness - don't care about us, we don't exist for them"
SteRo
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Joined: Fri Oct 11, 2019 10:27 am
Location: अ धीः

Re: Non-delight

Post by SteRo »

chownah wrote: Sat Jan 09, 2021 2:11 pm What about rapture? Where does it fit into the delight, joy, bliss, happiness spectrum?
Merriam Webster has (among other definitions):
Delight: a high degree of gratification or pleasure : joy; also : extreme satisfaction
Joy: the emotion evoked by well-being, success, or good fortune or by the prospect of possessing what one desires : delight; a state of happiness or felicity : bliss
Bliss: complete happiness
Rapture: an expression or manifestation of ecstasy or passion; a state or experience of being carried away by overwhelming emotion

So the use of these terms in everyday language does not entail dhammic discernment. Therefore their contextual use in doctrinal texts is decisive and in that context different translators use these terms depending on their linguistic "feelings". So for oneself it is advisable to follow the translation of one translator only.
Exhaling अ and inhaling धीः amounts to བྷྲཱུཾ་བི་ཤྭ་བི་ཤུད་དྷེ It's definitely not science but science may provide guidelines nevertheless.
Padipa
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Re: Non-delight

Post by Padipa »

It is more simple than all this. We are talking positive experiences--something which comes to your sensory input which you like--use any word you want for this. The goal is simple, do not let attachment accompany your sensory experiences. To do it, obviously, is harder than to say it, but that does not change the goal: out maneuver attachment. Meditation aids greatly towards reaching this goal.
skandha
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Re: Non-delight

Post by skandha »

Alino wrote: Sat Jan 09, 2021 9:32 am
Padipa wrote: Fri Jan 08, 2021 10:13 pm
Alino wrote: Fri Jan 08, 2021 4:48 am

I dont think that it is possible to delight without attachement.
If one delight in senses - one delight in senses...

Can you please give an exemple of delight without attachnent?
Sure--I can give you all you want. For example, I always delight upon the experience of a sunrise or sunset: the experience has never been accompanied by attachment. It is beautiful so much more, because it is one of a kind and one of a moment, not to be repeated for me ever again--as far as my expectations go. More generally, I delight in life, without attachment, because of Death's beauty: without death, life is meaningless. I delight in my uniqueness, being a miniscule, finite part of an infinite process. I delight in the beauty of the Earth, from space, precisely because I know our Sun will incinerate it when it becomes a Red Giant--it is delight, without attachment, because I understand the Earth's role is as limited and finite as mine, so the experience is without attachment, because I fathom its transience.

I would delight in meeting a Buddha (as the Dhammapada makes clear) precisely because the meeting is such a rare happening. Do my exaples help you to understand my ability to delight, without attachment? I am rushed, on a 10 minute break from work. I could do much better if you request me to do so. jt
And if tomorrow you lose your eyes or you die - will you sorrow or being exactly as happy as before?
This is an excellent measure of what kind of delight should be developed, what if you loose your eyes.

The delight based on sense experiences will mean sorrow, lamentation when you loose your eyes.

The delight of being unperturbed and not bounded by sensual experiences will mean you will be exactly as happy as before, even if you loose your eyes.

This is the gratification, danger, and escape that is often mentioned in the suttas.
Form is like a lump of foam, Feeling like a water bubble; Perception is like a mirage, Volitions like a plantain trunk, and consciousness like an illusion
- SN 22.95
pegembara
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Re: Non-delight

Post by pegembara »

chownah wrote: Sat Jan 09, 2021 2:11 pm What about rapture? Where does it fit into the delight, joy, bliss, happiness spectrum?

And which of these is replaced with equanimity (if any of them are replaced) and which are not?
chownah
"There was the case where Sariputta — quite secluded from sensuality, secluded from unskillful qualities — entered & remained in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born of seclusion, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. Whatever qualities there are in the first jhana — directed thought, evaluation, rapture, pleasure, singleness of mind, contact, feeling, perception, intention, consciousness,[2] desire, decision, persistence, mindfulness, equanimity, & attention — he ferreted them out one after another. Known to him they arose, known to him they remained, known to him they subsided. He discerned, 'So this is how these qualities, not having been, come into play. Having been, they vanish.' He remained unattracted & unrepelled with regard to those qualities, independent, detached, released, dissociated, with an awareness rid of barriers. He discerned that 'There is a further escape,' and pursuing it there really was for him.

"Furthermore, with the complete transcending of the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception, Sariputta entered & remained in the cessation of feeling & perception. Seeing with discernment, his fermentations were totally ended. He emerged mindfully from that attainment. On emerging mindfully from that attainment, he regarded the past qualities that had ceased & changed: 'So this is how these qualities, not having been, come into play. Having been, they vanish.' He remained unattracted & unrepelled with regard to those qualities, independent, detached, released, dissociated, with an awareness rid of barriers. He discerned that 'There is no further escape,' and pursuing it there really wasn't for him.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
Padipa
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Joined: Thu Oct 18, 2018 7:22 pm

Re: Non-delight

Post by Padipa »

skandha wrote: Wed Jan 13, 2021 12:04 am
Alino wrote: Sat Jan 09, 2021 9:32 am
Padipa wrote: Fri Jan 08, 2021 10:13 pm
Sure--I can give you all you want. For example, I always delight upon the experience of a sunrise or sunset: the experience has never been accompanied by attachment. It is beautiful so much more, because it is one of a kind and one of a moment, not to be repeated for me ever again--as far as my expectations go. More generally, I delight in life, without attachment, because of Death's beauty: without death, life is meaningless. I delight in my uniqueness, being a miniscule, finite part of an infinite process. I delight in the beauty of the Earth, from space, precisely because I know our Sun will incinerate it when it becomes a Red Giant--it is delight, without attachment, because I understand the Earth's role is as limited and finite as mine, so the experience is without attachment, because I fathom its transience.

I would delight in meeting a Buddha (as the Dhammapada makes clear) precisely because the meeting is such a rare happening. Do my exaples help you to understand my ability to delight, without attachment? I am rushed, on a 10 minute break from work. I could do much better if you request me to do so. jt
And if tomorrow you lose your eyes or you die - will you sorrow or being exactly as happy as before?
This is an excellent measure of what kind of delight should be developed, what if you loose your eyes.

The delight based on sense experiences will mean sorrow, lamentation when you loose your eyes.

The delight of being unperturbed and not bounded by sensual experiences will mean you will be exactly as happy as before, even if you loose your eyes.

This is the gratification, danger, and escape that is often mentioned in the suttas.
If you do not get attached to anything, (realizing the contingency of all happenings), you can not develop attachment--it is this simple. If you do not develop attachment, you will not suffer. Gratitude plays a role in this as well--understanding what has been done, the infinite number of things which go into the manifestation of things--every moment is unique & not repeatable. :)
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