Revealing counterfeit Dhamma: Poems of Matty Weingast published in "The First Free Women" as a version of the Therigatha

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DooDoot
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Re: Revealing counterfeit Dhamma: Poems of Matty Weingast published in "The First Free Women" as a version of the Therig

Post by DooDoot »

Thig 1.2 is very imaginative.
Thig 1.3 is weak
Thig 1.4 does not mention freedom from defilements (anāsavā). It mentions being a "free woman".
Thig 1.5 does not mention being personally consigned to hell (nirayamhi samappitā). It mentions an endless search.
Thig 1.6 OMG - its awful. It changes a simple poem about "cessation" into "arising & passing", sense objects "turning", "reading signs", limitations of "books & maps".

OK. I've read enough for now. Later. All I can say for now is keep your shekels in your pockets. :smile:
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SDC
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Re: Revealing counterfeit Dhamma: Poems of Matty Weingast published in "The First Free Women" as a version of the Therig

Post by SDC »

DooDoot wrote: Fri Jan 08, 2021 10:26 pm Thig 1.2 is very imaginative.
Thig 1.3 is weak
Thig 1.4 does not mention freedom from defilements (anāsavā). It mentions being a "free woman".
Thig 1.5 does not mention being personally consigned to hell (nirayamhi samappitā). It mentions an endless search.
Thig 1.6 OMG - its awful. It changes a simple poem about "cessation" into "arising & passing", sense objects "turning", "reading signs", limitations of "books & maps".

OK. I've read enough for now. Later. All I can say for now is keep your shekels in your pockets. :smile:
This belongs on Amazon! :thumbsup:

----

Thag and Thig may just be my favorite part of the Canon. To see it used like this is unfortunate. I hope the author and the people using this text are contacted and can be shown why it is a disservice to the Dhamma to promote a work that will obscure many far more accurate translations.
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Re: Revealing counterfeit Dhamma: Poems of Matty Weingast published in "The First Free Women" as a version of the Therig

Post by mikenz66 »

SDC wrote: Fri Jan 08, 2021 11:14 pm Thag and Thig may just be my favorite part of the Canon. To see it used like this is unfortunate. I hope the author and the people using this text are contacted and can be shown why it is a disservice to the Dhamma to promote a work that will obscure many far more accurate translations.
See Ayya Sudhamma's comments after a discussion with the author:
https://discourse.suttacentral.net/t/fr ... a/17940/57

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Re: Revealing counterfeit Dhamma: Poems of Matty Weingast published in "The First Free Women" as a version of the Therig

Post by SDC »

mikenz66 wrote: Sat Jan 09, 2021 1:16 am
SDC wrote: Fri Jan 08, 2021 11:14 pm Thag and Thig may just be my favorite part of the Canon. To see it used like this is unfortunate. I hope the author and the people using this text are contacted and can be shown why it is a disservice to the Dhamma to promote a work that will obscure many far more accurate translations.
See Ayya Sudhamma's comments after a discussion with the author:
https://discourse.suttacentral.net/t/fr ... a/17940/57

:heart:
Mike
Sad, yet not surprising.
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Re: Revealing counterfeit Dhamma: Poems of Matty Weingast published in "The First Free Women" as a version of the Therig

Post by coconut »

SDC wrote: Sat Jan 09, 2021 1:30 am
mikenz66 wrote: Sat Jan 09, 2021 1:16 am
SDC wrote: Fri Jan 08, 2021 11:14 pm Thag and Thig may just be my favorite part of the Canon. To see it used like this is unfortunate. I hope the author and the people using this text are contacted and can be shown why it is a disservice to the Dhamma to promote a work that will obscure many far more accurate translations.
See Ayya Sudhamma's comments after a discussion with the author:
https://discourse.suttacentral.net/t/fr ... a/17940/57

:heart:
Mike
Sad, yet not surprising.
Personally I think the dhamma is so polluted and corrupted as it is, as the Buddha predicted, that I don't even care that this is happening.

I see the true dhamma as a life boat, if you miss the boat, you're stuck on samsara.

Anyone who is sincere, eager, and intelligent enough, will get to the suttas one way or another.

I first got into suttas by reading a self help book my boss had on his profile back in early 2000. The book plaigerized the dhamma without giving any mention to Buddhism, and I wondered to myself where did the author get these ideas from. So I googled the author's name and saw that he was a member of all sorts of Buddhist groups mostly mahayana. So I looked up Mahayana texts and didn't really like them, and then I asked someone online what's a good meditation book and they mentioned Henepola Gunaratana's Mindfulness in Plain English. After reading that book and meditating for a while, I googled "suttas" and found accesstoinsight.

After that I was squarely in the theravada camp, and then over the decade and trying different forms of theravada like going on mahasi style retreats and thai forest treats, and hearing my friends experiences on goenka retreats.

Eventually I found monks that were early Buddhists, and I looked in archeology, and compared the ghandharan fragments translated by Richard Solomon, to the agamas, to the pali texts. I compared the visuddhimagga, to the patisambhidhamagga, to the vimuttimagga, to netti and petokopadesa. I read arguments about the different works of the khuddaka nikaya, and from there I refined further from the theravada camp to the early buddhist camp.

So those who are sincere, eager, and intelligent, will find a way to get on that lifeboat despite all the fake ones out there.
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Re: Revealing counterfeit Dhamma: Poems of Matty Weingast published in "The First Free Women" as a version of the Therig

Post by SDC »

coconut wrote: Sat Jan 09, 2021 10:38 am Personally I think the dhamma is so polluted and corrupted as it is, as the Buddha predicted, that I don't even care that this is happening.
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Re: Revealing counterfeit Dhamma: Poems of Matty Weingast published in "The First Free Women" as a version of the Therig

Post by coffeendonuts »

Believe it or not, what Matty Weingast is doing was standard practice in the ancient world.
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Re: Revealing counterfeit Dhamma: Poems of Matty Weingast published in "The First Free Women" as a version of the Therig

Post by BKh »

coffeendonuts wrote: Sat Jan 09, 2021 1:17 pm Believe it or not, what Matty Weingast is doing was standard practice in the ancient world.
Could you elaborate on that. I'm curious.
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Re: Revealing counterfeit Dhamma: Poems of Matty Weingast published in "The First Free Women" as a version of the Therig

Post by coffeendonuts »

BKh wrote: Sat Jan 09, 2021 2:15 pm
coffeendonuts wrote: Sat Jan 09, 2021 1:17 pm Believe it or not, what Matty Weingast is doing was standard practice in the ancient world.
Could you elaborate on that. I'm curious.
Sure, here's some context: https://www.historynet.com/can-trust-ancient-texts.htm

I may start a thread on this. It's a fascinating topic.
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Re: Revealing counterfeit Dhamma: Poems of Matty Weingast published in "The First Free Women" as a version of the Therig

Post by SDC »

coffeendonuts wrote: Sat Jan 09, 2021 1:17 pm Believe it or not, what Matty Weingast is doing was standard practice in the ancient world.
I have no doubts many people have been "doing it their own way" for this entire dispensation. Practicing according to the priority of personal preference is indeed standard.
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Re: Revealing counterfeit Dhamma: Poems of Matty Weingast published in "The First Free Women" as a version of the Therig

Post by coconut »

You can even see it in the suttas where monks misinterpret the dhamma and the Buddha has to correct them, and these were people speaking the same language, not even relying on translations like we do. As the Buddha said, the true dhamma is very subtle and hard to understand. This is why you must respect the gradual training.
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Re: Revealing counterfeit Dhamma: Poems of Matty Weingast published in "The First Free Women" as a version of the Therig

Post by Dhammanando »

coffeendonuts wrote: Sat Jan 09, 2021 1:17 pm Believe it or not, what Matty Weingast is doing was standard practice in the ancient world.
As far as Indian Buddhist literature goes, it was certainly a standard practice to compose new texts that included considerable imaginative embellishment of the old texts. But it wasn't a standard practice to claim that these new texts were translations of the old texts.

For example, when Asvaghosa wrote an account of the Bodhisatta's time with Ālāra Kālāma he fabricated the extra detail that Ālāra was a teacher of the Hindu Sāmkhya school and gave what he claimed was a summary of Ālāra's philosophy. There's no evidence for this at all. But what Asvaghosa did not do (but which this rascally Weingast fellow would most likely have done) was to try and peddle his work as a translation of the Ariyapariyesanasutta.
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Re: Revealing counterfeit Dhamma: Poems of Matty Weingast published in "The First Free Women" as a version of the Therig

Post by coffeendonuts »

Dhammanando wrote: Sat Jan 09, 2021 3:56 pmrascally Weingast fellow
Interesting comment. I'm always fascinated with the way our thoughts shape our emotions and behavior. Might this train of thought be unconstructive?
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Re: Revealing counterfeit Dhamma: Poems of Matty Weingast published in "The First Free Women" as a version of the Therig

Post by BKh »

coffeendonuts wrote: Sat Jan 09, 2021 4:02 pm
Dhammanando wrote: Sat Jan 09, 2021 3:56 pmrascally Weingast fellow
Interesting comment. I'm always fascinated with the way our thoughts shape our emotions and behavior. Might this train of thought be unconstructive?
I'm also hoping that the discussion doesn't turn into personal attacks. However, if you take the time to read his poems and compare them to the original, "rascally" might be one of the kinder ways to describe him. And taking into account how he is allowing the book to be marketed and received, you could certainly call his actions rascally without making a statement about him personally.
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Re: Revealing counterfeit Dhamma: Poems of Matty Weingast published in "The First Free Women" as a version of the Therig

Post by coconut »

coffeendonuts wrote: Sat Jan 09, 2021 4:02 pm
Dhammanando wrote: Sat Jan 09, 2021 3:56 pmrascally Weingast fellow
Interesting comment. I'm always fascinated with the way our thoughts shape our emotions and behavior. Might this train of thought be unconstructive?
I believe this is called not seeing the forest for the trees and a fault finding mind. It's a shame.
“These seven things lead to the decline of a lay follower. What seven? They stop seeing the mendicants. They neglect listening to the true teaching. They don’t train in higher ethical conduct. They’re very suspicious about mendicants, whether senior, junior, or middle. They listen to the teaching with a hostile, fault-finding mind. They seek outside of the Buddhist community for those worthy of religious donations. And they serve them first. These seven things lead to the decline of a lay follower.
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