Revealing counterfeit Dhamma: Poems of Matty Weingast published in "The First Free Women" as a version of the Therigatha

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48vows
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Re: Revealing counterfeit Dhamma: Poems of Matty Weingast published in "The First Free Women" as a version of the Therig

Post by 48vows »

They knew what they were doing, they happened to change this one because some people caught it.

Who knows how much english 'translations are true or not ?

Think of the future, there will be people reading the 'sutra' but it isn't the sutra at all, but a different text using the same name. So there will be groups of people devoted to this sutra or that sutra, but it is actually just a text written and published by some ...... you know...
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Re: Revealing counterfeit Dhamma: Poems of Matty Weingast published in "The First Free Women" as a version of the Therig

Post by DooDoot »

48vows wrote: Tue Feb 02, 2021 2:10 am They knew what they were doing, they happened to change this one because some people caught it.
The impression is Matty is being persecuted by a vigilante mob and this case should be refer to the Anti-Defamation League. :spy:
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Re: Revealing counterfeit Dhamma: Poems of Matty Weingast published in "The First Free Women" as a version of the Therig

Post by mikenz66 »

48vows wrote: Tue Feb 02, 2021 2:10 am They knew what they were doing, they happened to change this one because some people caught it.
Yes, absolutely. It seemed to be rather clever marketing...
48vows wrote: Tue Feb 02, 2021 2:10 am Who knows how much english 'translations are true or not ?
Good question. But the translations published by the Pali Text Society, and latterly Wisdom Publications, Access to Insight, DhammaTalks.org, Sutta Central, etc, are clearly trying to be accurate, though of course there will always be disagreement on some issues.

This case was completely different. Most of the poems bear very little resemblance to the Therigatha verses.
48vows wrote: Tue Feb 02, 2021 2:10 am Think of the future, there will be people reading the 'sutra' but it isn't the sutra at all, but a different text using the same name. So there will be groups of people devoted to this sutra or that sutra, but it is actually just a text written and published by some ...... you know...
And this is exactly the problem! I've seen some comments about how there are a lot of books with misleading interpretations of the Dhamma, so why worry about this book? Well, because those other books are not going to be mistaken for actual suttas.

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Re: Revealing counterfeit Dhamma: Poems of Matty Weingast published in "The First Free Women" as a version of the Therig

Post by 48vows »

Wisdom Publications has about as much credibility as Shambhala.
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Re: Revealing counterfeit Dhamma: Poems of Matty Weingast published in "The First Free Women" as a version of the Therig

Post by mikenz66 »

48vows wrote: Tue Feb 02, 2021 3:11 am Wisdom Publications has about as much credibility as Shambhala.
I don't know about Wisdom in general, but I was specifically referring to the Wisdom/PTS translations by Bhikkhu Bodhi...
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Re: Revealing counterfeit Dhamma: Poems of Matty Weingast published in "The First Free Women" as a version of the Therig

Post by dhammadabbler »

Well maybe we should not generalize wisdom publications. So far their published works are good (includes Bhante Gunaratana and Bhikkhu Bodhi ) , nonprofit and even Bhikkhu Analayo has a course there : https://wisdomexperience.org/courses/fo ... ndfulness/ .
48vows
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Re: Revealing counterfeit Dhamma: Poems of Matty Weingast published in "The First Free Women" as a version of the Therig

Post by 48vows »

dhammadabbler wrote: Tue Feb 02, 2021 4:51 am Well maybe we should not generalize wisdom publications. So far their published works are good (includes Bhante Gunaratana and Bhikkhu Bodhi ) , nonprofit and even Bhikkhu Analayo has a course there : https://wisdomexperience.org/courses/fo ... ndfulness/ .
$400 for an online course with analyo :shrug:

Myself, I'll read the PTS translations sooner than I'd read the ones from Jeffrey Block.
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Re: Revealing counterfeit Dhamma: Poems of Matty Weingast published in "The First Free Women" as a version of the Therig

Post by DooDoot »

"precious & transformative"....



Just peaked at SC and found the following. And to think Matty's book was endorsed by two bhikkhunis ordained in the Ven. Sujato coup d'état:
Sujato wrote:First Free Women, a bogus translation of Buddhist scripture

Imagine if someone were to take a beloved book from the Bible or the Koran, discard 95% of the content, and invent the rest from their imagination. Then it was sold and marketed as sacred scripture, and taught in churches or mosques as if it were ancient wisdom. Well sadly, that’s exactly what’s happening in Buddhism.

What can I do? (a note from Ayyā Sudhammā and Bhante Sujato)

A volume of original poetry is being sold as a translation of the Therigatha. If you’d like to voice your concern over this, here’s some actions you can take. You don’t have to be an expert: your voice matters.

Share this thread and the information with your circles and social media.
Contact Shambhala Publications directly:
email: [email protected]
facebook: @ShambhalaPublications
instagram: @shambhala_publications
Leave a review at Goodreads 2.
Leave a review at Amazon 5.
Add your voice to the reddit thread 3.

https://discourse.suttacentral.net/t/fi ... ture/18681
Sure, the below is unrelated to all of this: ;)
Brahmali wrote:A proposal for the reform of discriminatory bhikkhunī rules (part 1)

https://discourse.suttacentral.net/t/a- ... rt-1/18903
Brahmali wrote:A proposal for the reform of discriminatory bhikkhunī rules (part 2)

https://discourse.suttacentral.net/t/a- ... -2/18936/2
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Re: Revealing counterfeit Dhamma: Poems of Matty Weingast published in "The First Free Women" as a version of the Therig

Post by BKh »

I don't see anyone calling for book burnings. Just integrity in publishing. And criticisms have mostly been related to the actions of the publisher and authour, not people's character. It has been there a bit, unfortunately.

I also fail to see how this relates at all to support for Bhikkhuni ordination. The very fact that there are bhikkhunis who support the book show that everyone is allowed to have their own opinions. Imagine that.

Any way, there has been a response from the president of Shambhala Publications:
https://www.shambhala.com/ffw-response

Dear Friends,

Thank you for your letters and contributions to the online discussions regarding The First Free Women by Matty Weingast, and Shambhala Publications’ presentation of it. We are taking the issues that have been raised to heart and appreciate the constructive feedback we have received.

Although it was certainly not our intention to mislead readers regarding the nature of this poetic reimagining of the Therigatha, we see that many were, in fact, unclear about this point, and we fully acknowledge our misjudgment in how we presented this author’s work.

There is a long and wonderful literary history of works brought into English not as scholarly, line-by-line renderings but as loose reimaginings. And there is a place for such works. But for a sacred text like the Therigatha coming from a Buddhist publisher like us, it is a more nuanced affair. We did not present it as we should have, for which we are sorry to both the author and to readers who very reasonably expected something different.

In consultation with the author, we have decided to reissue this book in a manner that positions it clearly and unambiguously as an original work, rather than as a translation. We will also be updating the subtitle, cover, descriptive copy, and the Library of Congress information (the CIP data). The CIP data can take time to be issued, but we have commenced the process. There will be no further ambiguity on the matter once these are completed. The old edition is being cleared from the marketplace, and while a small amount of copies are out of our reach, there will be no further opportunity for retailers to order copies of the current edition.

We have commenced reaching out to all who endorsed the text to give them the opportunity to revisit their endorsements before the new edition comes out.

We would like to make clear that it was in no way our intention to misrepresent this work for monetary gain. That is not who we are, it is not how we work, and it is not why we do what we do.

As the largest publisher of Buddhist books, we feel an immense responsibility to consider our publications with care. At the core of our mission is our intention to support the many Buddhist traditions, and while we need to be sustainable, we publish books every year with little or no chance of financial success, only because we feel they are important to practitioners.

Although we now see how we fell short of our goals by giving the impression this book was a translation, our aim in doing so was certainly not to deceive, but to find a way to classify this unique and creative work by someone intelligent, sincere, and deeply devoted to the Dhamma.

It is our hope that after these clarifications are made, this remarkable and imaginative work, which we remain proud to publish, will in its own way continue to inspire people to learn and practice the teachings of the Buddha.

Thanks again for your feedback and engagement in this discussion.

Sincerely,

Nikko Odiseos
President, Shambhala Publications
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Re: Revealing counterfeit Dhamma: Poems of Matty Weingast published in "The First Free Women" as a version of the Therig

Post by DooDoot »

BKh wrote: Tue Feb 02, 2021 9:54 am I also fail to see how this relates at all to support for Bhikkhuni ordination.
My impression from watching their old video, is when they declared their "freedom" as bhikkhunis (when they acquired donated property in California), they declared their freedom from the old stifling discipline at Amaravati; and now can roam about like rock-stars in California. The impression is Matty's tribe is also offering them dana; because the video said Matty is building a house/hut on the property. I am also aware they are willing to openly endorse politicians, including mass murdering war mongers against the Middle-East. The suttas say: "be heirs to dhamma and not to material things". Given there is such an outcry from senior members of the Liberal Sangha, it appears both bhikkhunis demonstrated an error in judgment in endorsing Matty's canticle. It is possible these junior bhikkhunis did not consult any senior members of the male Sangha before acting. I recall when they made their old video declaring their freedom, they still complained about not receiving teachings from monks. The other bhikkhuni was still babbling about Ajahn Buddhadasa, from back in the early 90s when she lived with us. Today, i listened briefly to talk where the other bhikkhuni sounded like a mimic of Ajahns Sumedho & Amaro. Ven. Brahmali, who possibly shares Ven. Sujato's view about Matty's canticle, appears to also have the view the following should be abolished due to his personal discretion & apparent omniscience:
Every half-month a nun should seek two things from the Sangha of monks: asking it about the observance day and going to it for the instruction. If she goes beyond a half-month, she commits an offense entailing confession. (Bī-pāc. 59)
At least to me, it appears sort of contradictory; where bhikkhunis may start to imagine their refuge is wealthy lay secular benefactors rather than the Senior Sangha. At least to me, it is so bizarre Ven. Sujato is engaged in a public campaign against a book his own bhikkhuni recruits inherently endorsed. :smile:
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Re: Revealing counterfeit Dhamma: Poems of Matty Weingast published in "The First Free Women" as a version of the Therig

Post by BKh »

DooDoot wrote: Tue Feb 02, 2021 10:41 am At least to me, it appears sort of contradictory; where bhikkhunis may start to imagine their refuge is wealthy lay secular benefactors rather than the Senior Sangha. At least to me, it is so bizarre Ven. Sujato is engaged in a public campaign against a book his own bhikkhuni recruits inherently endorsed. :smile:
I would say, please forgive me, this is because you have miss-characterized the situation. You have spun a story making some connections that aren't there. You should take this contradiction and work backwards through your argument to see where you have made incorrect assumptions.

Some facts. The two senior nuns at Aloka Vihara have been ordained as bhikkhunis for ten years this October. Their ordination has no direct connection with Bhante Sujato in any way. He wasn't there. I doubt if they consulted him. You are making up relationships that aren't there. They aren't his recruits. That's just so odd to say they are. Ayya Anandabodhi didn't even have an account on the SuttaCentral.net forum until the whole book conversation started.

They do, however, have a long and obvious connection with Amaravati. And it wasn't the discipline there that they were against. In fact by becoming bhikkhunis they had far more discipline to contend with. However the Dhamma teachings and style of Amaravati was never the issue. I do think that their background at Amaravati has far more to do with their embrace of the book project than anything else. This isn't strange at all. They were part of Amaravati for a long time and Amaravati is well known for embracing hetrodox teachings. (sound of silence, etc etc.)
The impression is Matty's tribe is also offering them dana
Tribe? And why would you think he was wealthy?

And why in the world would the nuns need to get permission from Bhante Sujato who lives on the other side of the globe, or any other senior sangha? The world just doesn't work like that, especially when they are as senior as they are.

As well, it appears that Ayya Anandabodhi didn't realize how the book was being promoted and perceived. When she did, she wasn't happy about it. It could very well be her influence that convinced S.P. to pull the book and republish in a different form.

Really, you are engaging in ad hominem attacks and making up connections that just aren't there while ignoring the ones that are.
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Re: Revealing counterfeit Dhamma: Poems of Matty Weingast published in "The First Free Women" as a version of the Therig

Post by DooDoot »

BKh wrote: Tue Feb 02, 2021 12:44 pm Some facts. The two senior nuns at Aloka Vihara have been ordained as bhikkhunis for ten years this October.
Since when was (sub) "10 years" considered to be "senior"? It does not appear to be a "fact" the nuns are "senior" if they have not even been ordained for 10 years.
BKh wrote: Tue Feb 02, 2021 12:44 pmconnection with Bhante Sujato
My recollection is Ven. Sujato was inherently connected to the 1st Californian ordination in 2010, where the nun Thanasanti (now disrobed) from Amaravati was recruited directly by him into the same mode of California ordination. It appears to be the same organization to me; regardless how directly or indirectly Ven. Sujato was connected to the two later nuns in question.
BKh wrote: Tue Feb 02, 2021 12:44 pmThey were part of Amaravati for a long time and Amaravati is well known for embracing hetrodox teachings. (sound of silence, etc etc.)
Since the Buddha praised "noble silence (ariyo tuṇhībhāvo)", both in terms of speech & the 2nd jhana, there appears nothing "heterodox" about Venerable Ajahn Sumedho's teachings, here. :meditate:
BKh wrote: Tue Feb 02, 2021 12:44 pmAnd why in the world would the nuns need to get permission from Bhante Sujato who lives on the other side of the globe, or any other senior sangha? The world just doesn't work like that, especially when they are as senior as they are.
But they do not appear to be "senior"; both in terms of age and wisdom. I would say, please forgive me, this is because you have miss-characterized the situation by continuing to insist these nuns are "senior".

Regardless, being "senior" does not grant these two nuns or any other monastic carte blanche in endorsing alien doctrines that subvert Buddhism.
BKh wrote: Tue Feb 02, 2021 12:44 pmAs well, it appears that Ayya Anandabodhi didn't realize how the book was being promoted and perceived. When she did, she wasn't happy about it. It could very well be her influence that convinced S.P. to pull the book and republish in a different form.
Its difficult to logically make sense of the above speculations. Both bhikkhunis endorsed the book in writing. I have a copy of the book. I spent $14.95 Australian shekels buying the book. If they did not read the book but endorsed it, this would mean the two bhikkhunis engaged in false speech.
BKh wrote: Tue Feb 02, 2021 12:44 pmReally, you are engaging in ad hominem attacks and making up connections that just aren't there while ignoring the ones that are.
No. Not at all. My conscience is clear. :smile:
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Re: Revealing counterfeit Dhamma: Poems of Matty Weingast published in "The First Free Women" as a version of the Therig

Post by DooDoot »

BKh wrote: Tue Feb 02, 2021 12:44 pmAyya Anandabodhi ... is well known for embracing hetrodox teachings.
It appears a great error in her introduction to Matty's canticle was to call the ancient bhikkhunis "princesses, sex workers, young lovers, wives in arranged marriages".... All of the Therigata is written by bhikkhunis rather than the above. Also, all real Buddhist marriages were arranged, per DN 31; AN 4.45; etc. The suttas say:
Just as, when the great rivers … reach the great ocean, they give up their former names and designations and are simply called the great ocean, so too, when members of the four social classes—khattiyas, brahmins, vessas, and suddas—go forth from the household life into homelessness in the Dhamma and discipline proclaimed by the Tathāgata, they give up their former names and clans and are simply called ascetics following the Sakyan son. This is the fourth astounding and amazing quality that the bhikkhus see in this Dhamma and discipline….

https://suttacentral.net/an8.19/en/bodhi#sc21
If & when the verse of the Therigata were uttered, the bhikkhunis ceased to be and were not "princesses, sex workers, young lovers, wives in arranged marriages".

In summary, these two bhikkhunis appear to be clear examples of the "rogue" nature of Theravada monasticism in general. Theravada monasticism appears to have become such a diverse collection of idiosyncratic gurus that the term "Sangha" appears to be no longer applicable.

Based on the suttas, in the Buddha's time, it seems these two bhikkhunis would have been brought before the Sangha and heavily admonished by the Lord Buddha himself; as reported in suttas such as MN 22; MN 38; etc. :ugeek:
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48vows
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Re: Revealing counterfeit Dhamma

Post by 48vows »

And as it happened to the Therigatha, it is also happening with mahanaya texts too -

Whats is being called 'the lotus sutra' - "The Threefold Lotus Sutra: A Modern Translation for Contemporary Readers"

Parts of this "translation" can be found online, they are actually changing the sutra to decive people into thinking that it says things that it does not, and doesn't say things that it actually does.
48vows wrote: Tue Feb 02, 2021 2:10 am Think of the future, there will be people reading the 'sutra' but it isn't the sutra at all, but a different text using the same name. So there will be groups of people devoted to this sutra or that sutra, but it is actually just a text written and published by some ...
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Re: Revealing counterfeit Dhamma: Poems of Matty Weingast published in "The First Free Women" as a version of the Therig

Post by zerotime »

this type of distortion contaminated with sociopolitical arguments can be worse than a book with inspired poems

https://discourse.suttacentral.net/t/th ... itals/4876

the dangerous book and the Buddha genitals... All together seems a madhouse.

In fact we are seeing the consequences of an excessive connection of western monastics with the wordly environment and the present decadence of our societies. Decadence can drag those who lack of enough wisdom and disenchantment. Then some can try to fix the world by worldly means, which is a total mistake.

Not good for lay people.
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