Nirodha n nibbana

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asahi
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Nirodha n nibbana

Post by asahi »

Does both considered synonymous ?
If so why the third noble truth isnt nibbana ?


Thanks .
SteRo
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Re: Nirodha n nibbana

Post by SteRo »

nirodha: 'extinction'; s. nirodha-samāpatti, anupubba-nirodha.
https://www.dhammatalks.net/Buddhist.Di ... dic3_n.htm
anupubba-nirodha: The 9 'successive extinctions', are the 8 extinctions reached through the 8 absorptions (jhāna, q.v.) and the extinction of feeling and perception' (s. nirodha-samāpatti), as it is said in A. IX, 31 and D. 33:
https://www.dhammatalks.net/Buddhist.Di ... dic3_a.htm
nirodha-samāpatti: 'attainment of extinction' (S. XIV, 11), also called saññā-vedayita-nirodha, 'extinction of feeling and perception', is the temporary suspension of all consciousness and mental activity, following immediately upon the semi-conscious state called 'sphere of neither-perception-nor-non-perception' (s. jhāna, 8). The absolutely necessary pre-conditions to its attainment are said to be perfect mastery of all the 8 absorptions (jhāna), as well as the previous attainment of Anāgāmi or Arahatship (s. ariya-puggala).
https://www.dhammatalks.net/Buddhist.Di ... dic3_n.htm
Nibbāna, (Sanskrit nirvāna): lit. 'extinction' (nir + Ö va, to cease blowing, to become extinguished); according to the commentaries, 'freedom from desire' (nir+ vana). Nibbāna constitutes the highest and ultimate goal of all Buddhist aspirations, i.e. absolute extinction of that life-affirming will manifested as greed, hate and delusion, and convulsively clinging to existence; and therewith also the ultimate and absolute deliverance from all future rebirth, old age, disease and death, from all suffering and misery. Cf. Parinibbāna.

"Extinction of greed, extinction of hate, extinction of delusion: this is called Nibbāna" (S. XXXVIII. 1).
https://www.dhammatalks.net/Buddhist.Di ... dic3_n.htm

I. The 1st truth, briefly stated, teaches that all forms of existence whatsoever are unsatisfactory and subject to suffering (dukkha).

II. The 2nd truth teaches that all suffering, and all rebirth, is produced by craving (tanhā).

III. The 3rd truth teaches that extinction of craving necessarily results in extinction (nirodha) of rebirth and suffering, i.e. nibbāna (q.v.).

IV. The 4th truth of the Eightfold Path (magga) indicates the means by which this extinction is attained.
https://www.dhammatalks.net/Buddhist.Di ... dic3_s.htm

Clarified.
Exhaling अ and inhaling धीः amounts to བྷྲཱུཾ་བི་ཤྭ་བི་ཤུད་དྷེ . (This is the esoteric essence of the yoga of continuous flow which is no different from the universal flux of materiality. Therefore exoteric natural science provides vital guidelines.) अञ्जलि वागीश्वर
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DooDoot
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Re: Nirodha n nibbana

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SteRo wrote: Sun Jan 10, 2021 6:18 am
nirodha-samāpatti... the extinction of feeling and perception' (s. nirodha-samāpatti)... nirodha-samāpatti: 'attainment of extinction' ... saññā-vedayita-nirodha, 'extinction of feeling and perception',
Clarified.
Confused
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DooDoot
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Re: Nirodha n nibbana

Post by DooDoot »

Excellent question.

I will offer a very quick initial hypothesis about this topic however i will do more research at a later time because it is 11:00 pm (now 12:00 am) here therefore overdue bedtime. :zzz:
asahi wrote: Sun Jan 10, 2021 6:03 am Does both considered synonymous ?
Nirodha & nibbana appear so closely associated that they appear very close to synonymous. For example, the following stock description of Nibbana includes a sequence of very subtle phenomena that finally result in Nibbana:
the calming of all activities, the letting go of all attachments, the destruction of craving, dispassion, cessation, Nibbana.

sabbasaṅkhārasamatho sabbūpadhipaṭinissaggo taṇhākkhayo virāgo nirodho nibbānaṃ.

MN 26
However, it appears both words may not have the exact meaning.
asahi wrote: Sun Jan 10, 2021 6:03 amIf so why the third noble truth isnt nibbana ?
Nibbana is an element (dhatu) in the suttas. My impression is the grammatical case of the word nibbāna is often intrinsically 'nominative' thus referring to Nibbana is a discrete thing or subject. Example of nominative case:
Reverends, extinguishment is bliss!
sukhamidaṃ, āvuso, nibbāna
https://suttacentral.net/an9.34/en/sujato

Nibbana, the highest bliss
nibbāna paramaṃ sukhaṃ.
https://suttacentral.net/dhp197-208/en/buddharakkhita
Where as my impression of nirodha is the word is most commonly used to refer to the cessation of something or a process. Therefore, the grammatical case is often "genitive" ("possessive"), such as:
And how are the seven awakening factors developed and cultivated so as to lead to the cessation of craving?

Kathaṃ bhāvitā ca, bhikkhave, satta bojjhaṅgā kathaṃ bahulīkatā taṇhānirodhāya saṃvattanti?

https://suttacentral.net/sn46.27/en/sujato
The word nirodha above ends in "ya". "Ya" indicates the case is "genitive" or "possessive", literally translated as "craving's cessation".

Note: per MN 26 quoted above, nirodha can be nominative ("nirodho") however it appears most often intrinsically used in a genitive way. However, when "nirodha" is the nominative "nirodho" above, it appears synonymous with Nibbana.

Therefore, it appears "nirodha" most commonly refers to the cessation of something (such as cessation of craving, consciousness, dukkha, etc) where as Nibbana most often refers to itself.

Possibly (hypothesis) the word Nibbana cannot be used in the genitive case (although, as inferred, I could be wrong). For example, I am not sure the term "nibbānaya" (which is either genitive case or, otherwise, dative case) is genitive. I will start a new topic on this (here). In other words, it appears possibly the term "nibbana of suffering" cannot be used :shrug:.

Note: In the 3rd noble truth, '"dukkhanirodha" appears to be an adjective describing the noun "ariyasaccaṃ". Therefore, it is different grammatically to the genitive example above of taṇhānirodhāya.

In conclusion, it appears "the cessation of suffering" is "Nibbana". Therefore, both terms appear not exactly synonymous in this context because nirodha must refer to the cessation of something, namely, the cessation of suffering.
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cappuccino
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Re: Nirodha n nibbana

Post by cappuccino »

DooDoot wrote: Sun Jan 10, 2021 1:17 pm In conclusion, it appears "the cessation of suffering" is "Nibbana". Therefore, both terms appear not exactly synonymous in this context because nirodha must refer to the cessation of something, namely, the cessation of suffering.
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sphairos
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Re: Nirodha n nibbana

Post by sphairos »

asahi wrote: Sun Jan 10, 2021 6:03 am Does both considered synonymous ?
If so why the third noble truth isnt nibbana ?


Thanks .
Yes, the third truth is considered to be synonymous of nibbāna. The third truth is considered to be asaṅkhata (uncompounded) in the Abhidhamma and later literature (along with the fourth one).
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DooDoot
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Re: Nirodha n nibbana

Post by DooDoot »

sphairos wrote: Sun Jan 10, 2021 3:44 pm Yes, the third truth is considered to be synonymous of nibbāna. The third truth is considered to be asaṅkhata (uncompounded) in the Abhidhamma and later literature (along with the fourth one).
The third truth is about the "fading away" ("virāga") & "letting go" ("paṭinissaggo") of craving. Since it is the mind that lets go, it appears the third truth may not be unconditioned because the mind that lets go appears conditioned. If the third truth was unconditioned I imagine "letting go" would not be required. What would the unconditioned be required to let go of; let alone "fade away"? How can the unconditioned "fade away"? :shrug:

The fact the suttas explicitly say the fourth truth is conditioned shows how wrong your post is.
“But ma’am, is the noble eightfold path conditioned or unconditioned?”
“Ariyo panāyye, aṭṭhaṅgiko maggo saṅkhato udāhu asaṅkhato”ti?

“The noble eightfold path is conditioned.”
“Ariyo kho, āvuso visākha, aṭṭhaṅgiko maggo saṅkhato”ti.

https://suttacentral.net/mn44/en/sujato#10.1
As for your ideas about the Abhidhamma and later literature, possibly you should quote these texts rather than be suspected of false (unsubstantiated) speech. Kind regards :smile:
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pegembara
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Re: Nirodha n nibbana

Post by pegembara »

cappuccino wrote: Sun Jan 10, 2021 1:58 pm
DooDoot wrote: Sun Jan 10, 2021 1:17 pm In conclusion, it appears "the cessation of suffering" is "Nibbana". Therefore, both terms appear not exactly synonymous in this context because nirodha must refer to the cessation of something, namely, the cessation of suffering.
:goodpost:
Methinks the nirodha is closer in meaning to parinibbana. Whereas the cessation of suffering in more in line with the living experience of an arahant.
“Bhikkhus, there are these two Nibbāna-elements. What are the two? The Nibbāna-element with residue left and the Nibbāna-element with no residue left.

“What, bhikkhus, is the Nibbāna-element with residue left? Here a bhikkhu is an arahant, one whose taints are destroyed, the holy life fulfilled, who has done what had to be done, laid down the burden, attained the goal, destroyed the fetters of being, completely released through final knowledge. However, his five sense faculties remain unimpaired, by which he still experiences what is agreeable and disagreeable and feels pleasure and pain. It is the extinction of attachment, hate, and delusion in him that is called the Nibbāna-element with residue left.

“Now what, bhikkhus, is the Nibbāna-element with no residue left? Here a bhikkhu is an arahant … completely released through final knowledge. For him, here in this very life, all that is experienced, not being delighted in, will be extinguished. That, bhikkhus, is called the Nibbāna-element with no residue left.

https://suttacentral.net/iti44/en/ireland
Cessation/nirodha of feeling means there is no conscious experience at the time.
'Consciousness exists when what exists? From what as a requisite condition comes consciousness?' From my appropriate attention there came the breakthrough of discernment: 'Consciousness exists when name-&-form exists. From name-&-form as a requisite condition comes consciousness.'

"The thought occurred to me, 'I have attained this path to Awakening, i.e., from the cessation of name-&-form comes the cessation of consciousness, from the cessation of consciousness comes the cessation of name-&-form. From the cessation of name-&-form comes the cessation of the six sense media. From the cessation of the six sense media comes the cessation of contact. From the cessation of contact comes the cessation of feeling. From the cessation of feeling comes the cessation of craving. From the cessation of craving comes the cessation of clinging/sustenance. From the cessation of clinging/sustenance comes the cessation of becoming. From the cessation of becoming comes the cessation of birth. From the cessation of birth, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair all cease. Thus is the cessation of this entire mass of stress. Cessation, cessation.' Vision arose, clear knowing arose, discernment arose, knowledge arose, illumination arose within me with regard to things never heard before.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
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