Unconditioned

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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cappuccino
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Re: Unconditioned

Post by cappuccino »

asahi wrote: Thu Jan 14, 2021 9:10 am Nibbana is unconditioned, meaning?
we are conditioned to delight in things


Nirvana is a place of no delight in things
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Re: Unconditioned

Post by pegembara »

It's a bit like space. Forms arise and then disintegrate but space remains unaffected and everpresent. You don't notice because you are attracted to forms all the time. But when you turn your attention from forms you notice space by the absence of forms.
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
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Re: Unconditioned

Post by DooDoot »

Ceisiwr wrote: Thu Jan 14, 2021 4:08 pm You wouldn’t even pass high school English literature with this logic.
Takes 1 to no 1. :rofl:
chownah wrote: Thu Jan 14, 2021 3:00 pm I checked and ud8.1 does not use "atthi" with respect to "nibbana". In ud8.1 "atthi" is used with respect to some worldly metaphors which are associated with nibbana but "atthi" is not used with respect to the word "nibbana itself.
Oh dear. Another solipsist it seems. :roll:
Atthi, bhikkhave, tadāyatanaṃ, yattha neva pathavī, na āpo, na tejo, na vāyo, na ākāsānañcāyatanaṃ, na viññāṇañcāyatanaṃ, na ākiñcaññāyatanaṃ, na nevasaññānāsaññāyatanaṃ, nāyaṃ loko, na paraloko, na ubho candimasūriyā. Tatrāpāhaṃ, bhikkhave, neva āgatiṃ vadāmi, na gatiṃ, na ṭhitiṃ, na cutiṃ, na upapattiṃ; appatiṭṭhaṃ, appavattaṃ, anārammaṇamevetaṃ. Esevanto dukkhassā

There is, bhikkhus, that base where there is no earth, no water, no fire, no air; no base consisting of the infinity of space, no base consisting of the infinity of consciousness, no base consisting of nothingness, no base consisting of neither-perception-nor-non-perception; neither this world nor another world nor both; neither sun nor moon. Here, bhikkhus, I say there is no coming, no going, no staying, no deceasing, no uprising. Not fixed, not movable, it has no support. Just this is the end of suffering.

https://suttacentral.net/ud8.1/pli/ms
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SarathW
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Re: Unconditioned

Post by SarathW »

asahi wrote: Thu Jan 14, 2021 9:10 am Nibbana is unconditioned , meaning ?
How a conditioned mind get to know what is unconditioned ? How this dhamma get to be visible ?

Thanks
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Re: Unconditioned

Post by chownah »

Ceisiwr wrote: Thu Jan 14, 2021 4:08 pm
chownah wrote: Thu Jan 14, 2021 3:00 pm
I checked and ud8.1 does not use "atthi" with respect to "nibbana". In ud8.1 "atthi" is used with respect to some worldly metaphors which are associated with nibbana but "atthi" is not used with respect to the word "nibbana itself.
Then it is still referring to the same thing. The specific word “Nibbana” not being there doesn’t matter, since, as you say, other terms are used to describe the same thing. This is a terrible argument. You wouldn’t even pass high school English literature with this logic.
I have not presented a logic arguement at all. I have just pointed to what actually is written in the sutta....and what I said is accurate....the fact is that ud8.1 does not use the word "atthi" with respect to the word "nibbana" and the fact is that from all reports that I have seen it seems that "atthi" is not used with the word "nibbna" anywhere in the suttas.

This is not a matter of logic....it is a matter of pointing out what is contained in the sutta and what has been reported after people have searched the suttas and could not find a single instance of the use of "atthi" with respect to "nibbana".....YOU were one of the people who looked for it and couldn't find it.....

Either this is meaningful or it is a very very very bizarre coincidence in that dozens of times across several suttas "atthi" is used with worldly metaphors associated nibbana and NOT ONE TIME is it every used with respect to the word "nibbana".
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Re: Unconditioned

Post by chownah »

DooDoot wrote: Fri Jan 15, 2021 4:58 am
Ceisiwr wrote: Thu Jan 14, 2021 4:08 pm You wouldn’t even pass high school English literature with this logic.
Takes 1 to no 1. :rofl:
chownah wrote: Thu Jan 14, 2021 3:00 pm I checked and ud8.1 does not use "atthi" with respect to "nibbana". In ud8.1 "atthi" is used with respect to some worldly metaphors which are associated with nibbana but "atthi" is not used with respect to the word "nibbana itself.
Oh dear. Another solipsist it seems. :roll:
Atthi, bhikkhave, tadāyatanaṃ, yattha neva pathavī, na āpo, na tejo, na vāyo, na ākāsānañcāyatanaṃ, na viññāṇañcāyatanaṃ, na ākiñcaññāyatanaṃ, na nevasaññānāsaññāyatanaṃ, nāyaṃ loko, na paraloko, na ubho candimasūriyā. Tatrāpāhaṃ, bhikkhave, neva āgatiṃ vadāmi, na gatiṃ, na ṭhitiṃ, na cutiṃ, na upapattiṃ; appatiṭṭhaṃ, appavattaṃ, anārammaṇamevetaṃ. Esevanto dukkhassā

There is, bhikkhus, that base where there is no earth, no water, no fire, no air; no base consisting of the infinity of space, no base consisting of the infinity of consciousness, no base consisting of nothingness, no base consisting of neither-perception-nor-non-perception; neither this world nor another world nor both; neither sun nor moon. Here, bhikkhus, I say there is no coming, no going, no staying, no deceasing, no uprising. Not fixed, not movable, it has no support. Just this is the end of suffering.

https://suttacentral.net/ud8.1/pli/ms
Thank you for bringing something which shows clearly that "There is" is applied to the words in the list which follows it and that the word "nibbana" is NOT included in the list of things given there......bottom line is that the sutta does not use the word "atthi" with respect to the word "nibbana"......and further more I have asked about this several times before and so far from all reports it seems that "atthi" is not used with the word "nibbna" anywhere in the suttas...."atthi" is often used with various worldly metaphors associated with nibbana (like in the list in the sutta you reference) but "atthi" is NEVER used with "nibbana" itself.

Either this is meaningful or it is a very very very bizarre coincidence in that dozens of times across several suttas "atthi" is used with worldly metaphors associated nibbana and NOT ONE TIME is it every used with respect to the word "nibbana".
chownah

To everyone:
Can someone find out how many times the word "nibbana" appears in the suttas....dozens? ...hundreds? ...thousands?...............and NEVER EVEN ONCE is "atthi" used along with "nibbana"?.....and why do all the people who want you to believe that "atthi" applies to "nibbana" never explain why it is that there is no place in the suttas where the word "atthi" is ever used (not even once) with the word "nibbana" while at the same time the word "atthi" is typically (if not always) used with the worldly metaphores used in place of the word "nibbana"?
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Re: Unconditioned

Post by DooDoot »

chownah wrote: Fri Jan 15, 2021 5:32 am the word "nibbana" is NOT included in the list of things given there......
The quote says: "There is, bhikkhus, that base".... That base (ayatana) refers to Nibbana

The other things listed are those things that are not Nibbana. You sound confused.

Then the last sentence is Nibbana:
Here, bhikkhus, I say there is no coming, no going, no staying, no deceasing, no uprising. Not fixed, not movable, it has no support. Just this is the end of suffering.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Re: Unconditioned

Post by Ceisiwr »

chownah wrote: Fri Jan 15, 2021 5:24 am ...
If someone says the “Son of God” exists then this means that Jesus exists even if “exists” is never found next to “Jesus”, because “The Son of God” and “Jesus” are referring to the same thing. Likewise to say “the other shore exists” or whatever means that Nibbana exists even if “exists” is never found next to “Nibbana”, because “the other shore” (or whatever) and “Nibbana” are referring to the same damn thing.

“Atthi” not being found next to “Nibbana” is only “meaningful or very bizarre” if you don’t understand how language works. You are being extremely obtuse here. The only question is if that’s wilful or not?
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Re: Unconditioned

Post by Spiny Norman »

Ceisiwr wrote: Fri Jan 15, 2021 8:39 am
chownah wrote: Fri Jan 15, 2021 5:24 am ...
If someone says the “Son of God” exists then this means that Jesus exists even if “exists” is never found next to “Jesus”, because “The Son of God” and “Jesus” are referring to the same thing. Likewise to say “the other shore exists” or whatever means that Nibbana exists even if “exists” is never found next to “Nibbana”, because “the other shore” (or whatever) and “Nibbana” are referring to the same damn thing.

“Atthi” not being found next to “Nibbana” is only “meaningful or very bizarre” if you don’t understand how language works. You are being extremely obtuse here. The only question is if that’s wilful or not?
:goodpost:

Clearly Nibbana exists, the discussion is about how it exists.
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asahi
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Re: Unconditioned

Post by asahi »

DooDoot wrote: Thu Jan 14, 2021 1:23 pm
"Becoming" is defined in AN 3.76, which refers to consciousness becoming "established (patiṭṭhita)" or "stuck" in a sense object due to craving. The cause of becoming is craving & attachment; which leads to self-identity, as described in MN 44.
MN 44 wrote:The craving that makes for further becoming — accompanied by passion & delight, relishing now here & now there — i.e., craving for sensual pleasure, craving for becoming, craving for non-becoming: This, friend Visakha, is the origination of self-identification described by the Blessed One.
Therefore, in brief, "bhava" appears to mean "self-becoming"; the mind creating a new illusion of "self". In short, "bhava" is one of three mental fermentations (asava); the other two being sensual desire & ignorance.

"Atthi" appears to be a generic word about the existence of something in time & space. Sometimes, the word "atthi" can refer to some wrong views about permanence, such as in the term "atthita" in SN 12.15 or "atthattā" in SN 44.10. Other times it is used to refer to a wholesome moral doctine, such as "atthikavāda" in MN 60. Other times it is used to refer to the realistic existence of something, such as Nibbana in Ud 8.1 or suffering exists (atthi kho dukkham) in SN 12.17.

In summary, "becoming" ("bhava") appears to be always unwholesome/defiled; where as "atthi" is not always a wrong view.
It seems bhava means continuation of renewing processes where the consciousness are the seeds planted , then cravings causing it to grow in which the deeds resulting the kamma ripening into a new state . However this state of continuous existence is impermanent in contrast with the state of nibbana (in existence or of non-existence? :thinking:) which appears to be permanent and unconditioned .
If state of nibbana does exists , were it to be differ to atta ?
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Unconditioned

Post by Ceisiwr »

asahi wrote: Fri Jan 15, 2021 10:50 am

If state of nibbana does exists , were it to be differ to atta ?
Yes, because atta is a synthetic a priori concept.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: Unconditioned

Post by DooDoot »

asahi wrote: Fri Jan 15, 2021 10:50 am If state of nibbana does exists , were it to be differ to atta ?
Whatever is impermanent cannot be self.
But what is permanent is not necessarily a self.

For example, a cat cannot be a dog.
Yet what is not a cat, such as a bird, is not necessarily a dog.

Permanence does not imply selfhood.
Self is a mental construction of ego in Buddhism.

It appears you have some unlearning of dogma to perform.
Your questions appear tainted by Nagarjuna-type superstitions.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Re: Unconditioned

Post by chownah »

Ceisiwr wrote: Fri Jan 15, 2021 8:39 am
chownah wrote: Fri Jan 15, 2021 5:24 am ...
If someone says the “Son of God” exists then this means that Jesus exists even if “exists” is never found next to “Jesus”, because “The Son of God” and “Jesus” are referring to the same thing. Likewise to say “the other shore exists” or whatever means that Nibbana exists even if “exists” is never found next to “Nibbana”, because “the other shore” (or whatever) and “Nibbana” are referring to the same damn thing.

“Atthi” not being found next to “Nibbana” is only “meaningful or very bizarre” if you don’t understand how language works. You are being extremely obtuse here. The only question is if that’s wilful or not?
Please tell me why the word "atthi" is never used with respect to the word "nibbana"?....but it is almost always used with the worldly metaphores used to describe nibbana?
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Re: Unconditioned

Post by chownah »

Spiny Norman wrote: Fri Jan 15, 2021 8:43 am Clearly Nibbana exists, the discussion is about how it exists.
Please tell me why the word "atthi" is never used with respect to the word "nibbana"?....but it is almost always used with the worldly metaphores used to describe nibbana?
chownah
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Unconditioned

Post by Ceisiwr »

chownah wrote: Fri Jan 15, 2021 12:35 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Fri Jan 15, 2021 8:39 am
chownah wrote: Fri Jan 15, 2021 5:24 am ...
If someone says the “Son of God” exists then this means that Jesus exists even if “exists” is never found next to “Jesus”, because “The Son of God” and “Jesus” are referring to the same thing. Likewise to say “the other shore exists” or whatever means that Nibbana exists even if “exists” is never found next to “Nibbana”, because “the other shore” (or whatever) and “Nibbana” are referring to the same damn thing.

“Atthi” not being found next to “Nibbana” is only “meaningful or very bizarre” if you don’t understand how language works. You are being extremely obtuse here. The only question is if that’s wilful or not?
Please tell me why the word "atthi" is never used with respect to the word "nibbana"?....but it is almost always used with the worldly metaphores used to describe nibbana?
chownah
Because the Buddha chose a different word instead to describe the same thing. It really is a non-issue.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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