Unconditioned

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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cappuccino
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Re: Unconditioned

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Spiny Norman wrote: Sun Jan 17, 2021 4:16 pm The question stands. Is it a thing, a state of mind, or something else?
state of mind and physical element
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Re: Unconditioned

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cappuccino wrote: Sun Jan 17, 2021 4:21 pm
Spiny Norman wrote: Sun Jan 17, 2021 4:16 pm The question stands. Is it a thing, a state of mind, or something else?
state of mind and physical element
States of mind are conditioned, so logically Nibbana must be a "thing", independent of mind.

So what kind of "thing"? Not subject to arising and ceasing. And so...?
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Re: Unconditioned

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Spiny Norman wrote: Sun Jan 17, 2021 5:36 pm States of mind are conditioned, so logically
like cooled rice is a state of food
Last edited by cappuccino on Sun Jan 17, 2021 6:19 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Unconditioned

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cappuccino wrote: Sun Jan 17, 2021 5:42 pm
Spiny Norman wrote: Sun Jan 17, 2021 5:36 pm
cappuccino wrote: Sun Jan 17, 2021 4:21 pm

state of mind and physical element
States of mind are conditioned, so logically Nibbana must be a "thing", independent of mind.

So what kind of "thing"? Not subject to arising and ceasing. And so...?
like cooled rice is a state of food


which is not made by conditioning it with heat
Sorry, I don't follow. What does the rice represent here?
Something unconditioned would be unaffected by conditions like temperature, by definition. Hot and cold wouldn't apply.
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Re: Unconditioned

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Spiny Norman wrote: Sun Jan 17, 2021 5:50 pm Sorry, I don't follow. What does the rice represent here?
the cooled rice is unconditioned


the heat was the conditioning
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Re: Unconditioned

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cappuccino wrote: Sun Jan 17, 2021 5:59 pm
Spiny Norman wrote: Sun Jan 17, 2021 5:50 pm Sorry, I don't follow. What does the rice represent here?
the cooled rice is unconditioned


the heat was the conditioning
I don't think that works. If the rice is unconditioned, it couldn't be hot or cold, or affected by heat.
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Re: Unconditioned

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Spiny Norman wrote: Sun Jan 17, 2021 6:46 pm
the rice exists when unconditioned


most find this difficult to accept


they expected the rice to disappear
Last edited by cappuccino on Sun Jan 17, 2021 7:01 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Unconditioned

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Spiny Norman wrote: Sun Jan 17, 2021 4:10 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Jan 17, 2021 2:29 pm
Saying that final nibbāna is non-existence is just as speculative view as saying it is existence. Its still the same old synthetic a priori reasoning being spun due to the actions of nāma under the influence of craving.
So what is Nibbana, exactly? And what does it mean to say that Nibbana is unconditioned, practically speaking?
Is Nibbana a thing, a state of mind, or something else?
Well for reasons already given I can't give a definitive answer. All that can be said is that nibbāna exists and that it is sensed at the mind base, and that in the experience of it there is no experience of conditioned dhammas (such as earth, wind, sun, moon etc etc). To say it is unconditioned is to say that it does not arise nor cease, and so it has no condition. It isn't a state of mind. In the suttas the direct experience of final nibbāna is nirodha-samāpatti.
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Re: Unconditioned

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Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Jan 17, 2021 6:53 pm It isn't a state of mind.
Buddha some­times preferred to explain what Nibbāna was not. It was, he told his disciples, a state

where there is neither earth nor water, light nor air; neither infinity or space; it is not infinity of reason but nor is it an absolute void … it is neither this world or another world: it is both sun and moon.

from Buddha by Karen Armstrong
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Re: Unconditioned

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Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Jan 17, 2021 6:53 pm
Spiny Norman wrote: Sun Jan 17, 2021 4:10 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Jan 17, 2021 2:29 pm
Saying that final nibbāna is non-existence is just as speculative view as saying it is existence. Its still the same old synthetic a priori reasoning being spun due to the actions of nāma under the influence of craving.
So what is Nibbana, exactly? And what does it mean to say that Nibbana is unconditioned, practically speaking?
Is Nibbana a thing, a state of mind, or something else?
Well for reasons already given I can't give a definitive answer. All that can be said is that nibbāna exists and that it is sensed at the mind base, and that in the experience of it there is no experience of conditioned dhammas (such as earth, wind, sun, moon etc etc). To say it is unconditioned is to say that it does not arise nor cease, and so it has no condition. It isn't a state of mind. In the suttas the direct experience of final nibbāna is nirodha-samāpatti.
OK, but I've listened to Christians making similar statements about "God". It's a doctrinal list, or faith-based rhetoric.
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Re: Unconditioned

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Spiny Norman wrote: Sun Jan 17, 2021 7:13 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Jan 17, 2021 6:53 pm
Spiny Norman wrote: Sun Jan 17, 2021 4:10 pm

So what is Nibbana, exactly? And what does it mean to say that Nibbana is unconditioned, practically speaking?
Is Nibbana a thing, a state of mind, or something else?
Well for reasons already given I can't give a definitive answer. All that can be said is that nibbāna exists and that it is sensed at the mind base, and that in the experience of it there is no experience of conditioned dhammas (such as earth, wind, sun, moon etc etc). To say it is unconditioned is to say that it does not arise nor cease, and so it has no condition. It isn't a state of mind. In the suttas the direct experience of final nibbāna is nirodha-samāpatti.
OK, but I've listened to Christians making similar statements about "God". It's a doctrinal list, or faith-based rhetoric.
Of course I'm basing this on faith since I have not directly experienced nibbāna. Christian Theism asserts that God is a Being and has other attributes. That is quite a different thing.
“Aṅgulimāla, I have forever stopped"

MN 86
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Re: Unconditioned

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Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Jan 17, 2021 7:16 pm
Spiny Norman wrote: Sun Jan 17, 2021 7:13 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Jan 17, 2021 6:53 pm

Well for reasons already given I can't give a definitive answer. All that can be said is that nibbāna exists and that it is sensed at the mind base, and that in the experience of it there is no experience of conditioned dhammas (such as earth, wind, sun, moon etc etc). To say it is unconditioned is to say that it does not arise nor cease, and so it has no condition. It isn't a state of mind. In the suttas the direct experience of final nibbāna is nirodha-samāpatti.
OK, but I've listened to Christians making similar statements about "God". It's a doctrinal list, or faith-based rhetoric.
Of course I'm basing this on faith since I have not directly experienced nibbāna. Christian Theism asserts that God is a Being and has other attributes. That is quite a different thing.
Not really, given that you have no experience of either God or Nibbana.
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Re: Unconditioned

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Spiny Norman wrote: Sun Jan 17, 2021 7:21 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Jan 17, 2021 7:16 pm
Spiny Norman wrote: Sun Jan 17, 2021 7:13 pm

OK, but I've listened to Christians making similar statements about "God". It's a doctrinal list, or faith-based rhetoric.
Of course I'm basing this on faith since I have not directly experienced nibbāna. Christian Theism asserts that God is a Being and has other attributes. That is quite a different thing.
Not really, given that you have no experience of either God or Nibbana.
Correct, but what I was referring to are the ideas or statements put forward. Christian Theism states that God is an eternal Being endowed with desires, thought, will and emotions. It is this which I was claiming is different to the idea of nibbāna that we find in the suttas.
“Aṅgulimāla, I have forever stopped"

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Re: Unconditioned

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Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Jan 17, 2021 7:24 pm
Spiny Norman wrote: Sun Jan 17, 2021 7:21 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Jan 17, 2021 7:16 pm

Of course I'm basing this on faith since I have not directly experienced nibbāna. Christian Theism asserts that God is a Being and has other attributes. That is quite a different thing.
Not really, given that you have no experience of either God or Nibbana.
Correct, but what I was referring to are the ideas or statements put forward. Christian Theism states that God is an eternal Being endowed with desires, thought, will and emotions. It is this which I was claiming is different to the idea of nibbāna that we find in the suttas.
Sure, they are different ideas about something transcendental.
But they're both beliefs, in the absence of direct experience. And even direct experience is inherently subjective.
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Re: Unconditioned

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Spiny Norman wrote: Sun Jan 17, 2021 7:37 pm

Sure, they are different ideas about something transcendental. But they're both beliefs, in the absence of direct experience. And even direct experience is inherently subjective.
I already acknowledged that what I have just been arguing is based on belief (and analysis of the suttas). This will be the case until I directly experience nibbāna for myself. You might reply with, "but you don't know that will ever happen" to which I would also agree. There is, of course, an element of risk with any trust & faith. It's a risk I'm more than willing to take.
And even direct experience is inherently subjective.
The Buddha restricted himself to what can be directly known. Adding an overlay of views on top of that is what is part of the problem. An experience devoid of all conditioned dhammas isn't subjective. Thinking that experience is Atman, Brahman or Allah is. This goes back to the synthetic a priori reasoning that I have been discussing. To give another example, someone like Yājñavalkya might experience the attainment of infinite consciousness and call that Brahman whereas the Buddha simply left it at what was directly experienced, nothing more.
“Aṅgulimāla, I have forever stopped"

MN 86
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