Was the Buddha secretly teaching Ajnana doctrine?

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zan
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Was the Buddha secretly teaching Ajnana doctrine?

Post by zan »

Ajnana taught
Agnosticism: "I don't think so. I don't think in that
way or otherwise. I don't think not or not not."
Suspension of judgement.
-Wikpedia page on Sramana
I have seen people state that the Buddha taught quietism, which is closely related to this type of suspension of judgement. I assumed this usually is based on viewing the Buddha through a Nagarjuna influenced lens (Nagarjuna on views below). Nagarjuna was influenced by Pyrrhonism (see below), which was influenced by Buddhism. I always assumed this was all Mahayana, because the Pali texts call the sceptics Amaravikkhepikas (eel wrigglers), and "a product of sheer stupidity" (wiki page on ajnana) and the Buddha did not talk in riddling speech all the time, always suspending judgment, but frequently gave straight answers on questions, especially on moral conduct. Then I saw the following:

Sanjaya of the Ajnana school was the teacher of Moggallana and Sariputta. The Atthakavagga contains a strong element of skepticism.
Interpretations
Speaking generally, the Aṭṭhakavagga and the Pārāyanavagga tend more strongly to emphasize the negative (i.e. those of abstention) sides of asceticism,[note 2] and show a strong concern with letting go of views, regulating everyday bodily activities, and sexual desires.[4] The Atthakavagga does not give a clear-cut goal such as nirvana, but describes the ideal person.[5] This ideal person is especially characterized by suddhi (purity) and santi (calmness).[5] The Aṭṭhakavagga also places considerable emphasis on the rejection of, or non-attachment to, all views, and is reluctant to put forward positions of their own regarding basic metaphysical issues.[1][5][6][7]

Pre-Buddhist or proto-Madhyamaka
Gomez compared them to later Madhyamaka philosophy, which in its Prasaṅgika form especially makes a method of rejecting others' views rather than proposing its own.[1]

Interpretation as heterodox
Tillman Vetter, although agreeing overall with Gomez's observations, suggests some refinements on historical and doctrinal grounds.[8] First, he notes that neither of these short collections of suttas are homogeneous and hence are not all amenable to Gomez' proposals. According to Vetter, those suttas which do lend support to Gomez probably originated with a heterodox ascetic group[clarification needed] that pre-dated the Buddha, and were integrated into the Buddhist Sangha at an early date, bringing with them some suttas that were already in existence and also composing further suttas in which they tried to combine their own teachings with those of the Buddha.[8]

Interpretation as orthodox
Paul Fuller has rejected the arguments of Gomez and Vetter.[7] He finds that

... the Nikayas and the Atthakavagga present the same cognitive attitude toward views, wrong or right.[9]

Fuller states that in the Nikayas, right-view includes non-dependence on knowledge and views, and mentions the Buddha's simile of his dhamma as a raft that must be abandoned. He finds that the Atthakavagga's treatment of knowledge and wisdom is parallel to the later Patthana's apparent criticism of giving, holding the precepts, the duty of observance, and practicing the jhanas. In his view, both texts exhibit this particular approach not as an attack on practice or knowledge, but to point out that attachment to the path is destructive.[9] Similarly, the text's treatment of concentration meditation is intended to warn against attachment to insight, and communicate that insight into the nature of things necessarily involves a calm mind.[9]

Alexander Wynne also rejects both of Vetter's claims that the Parayanavagga shows a chronological stratification, and a different attitude toward mindfulness and liberating insight than do other works.[10][note 3]


Theravada interpretation
The Theravada tradition has taken the view that the text's statements, including many which are clearly intended to be paradoxical, are meant to be puzzled over and explicated. An extended commentary attributed to Sariputta, entitled the Mahaniddesa, was included in the Canon. It seeks to reconcile the content of the poems with the teachings in the rest of the discourses.[web 1]
Wikipedia page on Atthakavagga and Parayanavagga
Does this mean that Ajnana is the source for the Buddha's true teaching, and that this filtered through to Phyrro, and then to Nagarjuna, and so the hyper sceptical position of these Greek and then Mahayana schools of thought are the authentic teaching, while the other thousands of teachings are mere riddles to be overcome in favor of this true teaching?

If so, and the Buddha's teaching can ultimately be reduced to Ajnana, then are all the moral lessons and meditation techniques and such mere tests and riddles to be abandoned for the true position which is suspension of all views, rather than just the wrong views? Is the Eightfold Path to be abandoned? Is morality to be abandoned? And so on?

Is the rejection of the Ajnana position and denigration of it a misdirect, a trick, another riddle to be overcome and realize that this school's teaching is exactly what one is supposed to learn?

Seems strange to go through 45 years of teaching very specific teachings, including Right View, when all he really meant was "Have absolutely zero views. and abandon even Right View" If this is true, then why didn't he just teach the exact same thing as the Ajnanas? Nagarjuna had no difficulty articulating these things clearly and directly, whereas the Buddha emphasized Right View and many other views constantly, and never, to my knowledge, said that one must abandon all views, obviously because this would also entail abandoning Buddhism itself.

Nagarjuna's teachings delineated below are nearly identical to Pyrrhonism, do we find the same in the Pali suttas with a firm trend? A trend that outpaces it's opposite: the frequent teachings that there are right views and other things to be accepted by the wise student, as opposed to this idea that the wisest reject literally everything, without exception?

Do we find even one sutta where the Buddha states anything like Nagarjuna below, that we must abandon all views? Do we interpret the abandoning the raft sutta as such? Or could this sutta merely be speaking about the Arahant being independent of the Dhamma, yet still holding right view; he simply does not need the raft any longer? Or perhaps it is speaking about Parinibbana, wherein one leaves everything behind, which doesn't mean abandoning Right View while alive and propagating Dhamma.

Did the Buddha ever say that even those that have the Right View taught by him, or the view of his teachings on emptiness are, as Nagarjuna said of those that hold his own teachings on emptiness as views, "incorrigible", or anything of the sort? Did he ever say that, yet again, like Nagarjuna below, that he personally had no position whatsoever?

If so, then... what? Forget the Dhamma and enjoy your life? Seems too simple to reduce the 80, 000 page Pali Canon to mere extreme, viewless, positionless scepticism.




Nagarjuna on views
Nāgārjuna is famous for arguing that his philosophy was not a view, and that he in fact did not take any position (paksa) or thesis (pratijña) whatsoever since this would just be another form of clinging to some form of existence.[77][64] In his Vigrahavyavartani, Nāgārjuna states:

If I had any position, I thereby would be at fault. Since I have no position, I am not at fault at all. If there were anything to be observed through direct perception and the other instances [of valid cognition], it would be something to be established or rejected. However, since no such thing exists, I cannot be criticized.[78]

Likewise in his Sixty Stanzas on Reasoning, Nāgārjuna says: "By taking any standpoint whatsoever, you will be snatched by the cunning snakes of the afflictions. Those whose minds have no standpoint, will not be caught." [79] Randall Collins states that for Nāgārjuna, ultimate reality is simply the idea that "no concepts are intelligible", while Ferrer notes that Nagarjuna criticized those whose mind held any "positions and beliefs", including the view of emptiness, as Nāgārjuna says: "The Victorious Ones have announced that emptiness is the relinquishing of all views. Those who are possessed of the view of emptiness are said to be incorrigible."[80][81] Aryadeva echoes this idea in his Four Hundred Verses:

"First, one puts an end to what is not meritorious. In the middle, one puts an end to identity. Later, one puts an end to all views. Those who understand this are skilled."[82]
-Wikipedia page on Madhyamaka
Pyrrhonism
Main article: Similarities between Pyrrhonism and Buddhism
Because of the high degree of similarity between Madhyamaka and Pyrrhonism,[100] Thomas McEvilley[101] and Matthew Neale[102][103] suspect that Nāgārjuna was influenced by Greek Pyrrhonist texts imported into India. Pyrrho of Elis (c. 360-c. 270 BCE), who is credited with founding this school of skeptical philosophy, was himself influenced by Buddhist philosophy[104] during his stay in India with Alexander the Great's army.
-Wiki page on Madhyamaka
Last edited by zan on Thu Jan 14, 2021 6:15 pm, edited 5 times in total.
Assume all of my words on dhamma could be incorrect. Seek an arahant for truth.


"If we base ourselves on the Pali Nikayas, then we should be compelled to conclude that Buddhism is realistic. There is no explicit denial anywhere of the external world. Nor is there any positive evidence to show that the world is mind-made or simply a projection of subjective thoughts. That Buddhism recognizes the extra-mental existence of matter and the external world is clearly suggested by the texts. Throughout the discourses it is the language of realism that one encounters.
-Y. Karunadasa
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Re: Was the Buddha secretly teaching Ajnana doctrine?

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Re: Was the Buddha secretly teaching Ajnana doctrine?

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No. The Buddha was an empiricist and acknowledged the possibility of knowledge. What he criticised was views or, what we would call today “metaphysics”. In other words he rejected synthetic a priori reasoning. If you look at DN 1 all of those views are synthetic a priori. The leaders from other sects experienced something and then formed metaphysical views about it, or just plane reasoned (eternal, not eternal, soul and so on). They claimed things existed or were a certain way that they never actually experienced. For example, someone might remember 100000000 past lives and then go on to synthesise the view a priorily that the universe is eternal. That is what is criticised. In comparison Right View is not that. It isn’t synthetic a priori, but it is knowledge. It is analytical knowledge.

This excludes the sceptics of course, who are wrong for a different reason.
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Re: Was the Buddha secretly teaching Ajnana doctrine?

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Read AN 3.84 - essentially he said give up greed, hatred and delusion and you won't do anything unskilful by body, speech or mind.

Then read MN 74 to see what the Buddha had to say to the wanderer who claimed to hold no views.

Did the Buddha say that arahantship is even the abandoning of Right View? Yes he did, but most definitely did not teach learners to hold no views. That's denialistic and ignores the present wrong view that needs to be recognized.
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
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Re: Was the Buddha secretly teaching Ajnana doctrine?

Post by zan »

SDC wrote: Thu Jan 14, 2021 6:15 pm Read AN 3.84 - essentially he said give up greed, hatred and delusion and you won't do anything unskilful by body, speech or mind.

Then read MN 74 to see what the Buddha had to say to the wanderer who claimed to hold no views.

Did the Buddha say that arahantship is even the abandoning of Right View? Yes he did, but most definitely did not teach learners to hold no views. That's denialistic and ignores the present wrong view that needs to be recognized.
Thank you. I'll read those soon. Where did he say that one must abandon Right View? If he "most definitely did not teach learners to hold no views." then why would he teach that arahants abandon Right View? The most important view is to be abandoned? And if it is abandoned by arahants, why do arahants teach Right View? For example: If an astronomy teacher claims to have abandoned the view that the Earth is flat, and that their students should abandon this view as well, yet they call the flat Earth teachings "right view" and teach that this position is "right" constantly, does this make any sense?
Assume all of my words on dhamma could be incorrect. Seek an arahant for truth.


"If we base ourselves on the Pali Nikayas, then we should be compelled to conclude that Buddhism is realistic. There is no explicit denial anywhere of the external world. Nor is there any positive evidence to show that the world is mind-made or simply a projection of subjective thoughts. That Buddhism recognizes the extra-mental existence of matter and the external world is clearly suggested by the texts. Throughout the discourses it is the language of realism that one encounters.
-Y. Karunadasa
zan
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Re: Was the Buddha secretly teaching Ajnana doctrine?

Post by zan »

Ceisiwr wrote: Thu Jan 14, 2021 6:12 pm No. The Buddha was an empiricist and acknowledged the possibility of knowledge. What he criticised was views or, what we would call today “metaphysics”. In other words he rejected synthetic a priori reasoning. If you look at DN 1 all of those views are synthetic a priori. The leaders from other sects experienced something and then formed metaphysical views about it, or just plane reasoned (eternal, not eternal, soul and so on). They claimed things existed or were a certain way that they never actually experienced. For example, someone might remember 100000000 past lives and then go on to synthesise the view a priorily that the universe is eternal. That is what is criticised. In comparison Right View is neither of those, but it is knowledge. It is analytical knowledge.

This excludes the sceptics of course, who are wrong for a different reason.
Thanks!
Assume all of my words on dhamma could be incorrect. Seek an arahant for truth.


"If we base ourselves on the Pali Nikayas, then we should be compelled to conclude that Buddhism is realistic. There is no explicit denial anywhere of the external world. Nor is there any positive evidence to show that the world is mind-made or simply a projection of subjective thoughts. That Buddhism recognizes the extra-mental existence of matter and the external world is clearly suggested by the texts. Throughout the discourses it is the language of realism that one encounters.
-Y. Karunadasa
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Re: Was the Buddha secretly teaching Ajnana doctrine?

Post by SDC »

zan wrote: Thu Jan 14, 2021 6:20 pm
SDC wrote: Thu Jan 14, 2021 6:15 pm Read AN 3.84 - essentially he said give up greed, hatred and delusion and you won't do anything unskilful by body, speech or mind.

Then read MN 74 to see what the Buddha had to say to the wanderer who claimed to hold no views.

Did the Buddha say that arahantship is even the abandoning of Right View? Yes he did, but most definitely did not teach learners to hold no views. That's denialistic and ignores the present wrong view that needs to be recognized.
Thank you. I'll read those soon. Where did he say that one must abandon Right View? If he "most definitely did not teach learners to hold no views." then why would he teach that arahants abandon Right View? The most important view is to be abandoned? And if it is abandoned by arahants, why do arahants teach Right View? For example: If an astronomy teacher claims to have abandoned the view that the Earth is flat, and that their students should abandon this view as well, yet they call the flat Earth teachings "right view" and teach that this position is "right" constantly, does this make any sense?
See the simile of the raft in MN 22. That is pretty explicit although I vaguely recall something even more so. I'll take a look.

He didn't teach arahants to abandon Right View. According to the suttas, the state of the arahant is equal to Right View being abandoned.

Teachers teach Right View because it is needed to a position where All Views can be surmounted.

See the raft simile in MN 22 and I think it will make more sense.
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
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Re: Was the Buddha secretly teaching Ajnana doctrine?

Post by sphairos »

The Buddha doesn't have anything against the views as such, what he is against is craving and attachment to views. His analysis shows that if one is not attached and does not crave anything, then one does not hold any views as well...
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Re: Was the Buddha secretly teaching Ajnana doctrine?

Post by zan »

SDC wrote: Thu Jan 14, 2021 6:30 pm
zan wrote: Thu Jan 14, 2021 6:20 pm
SDC wrote: Thu Jan 14, 2021 6:15 pm Read AN 3.84 - essentially he said give up greed, hatred and delusion and you won't do anything unskilful by body, speech or mind.

Then read MN 74 to see what the Buddha had to say to the wanderer who claimed to hold no views.

Did the Buddha say that arahantship is even the abandoning of Right View? Yes he did, but most definitely did not teach learners to hold no views. That's denialistic and ignores the present wrong view that needs to be recognized.
Thank you. I'll read those soon. Where did he say that one must abandon Right View? If he "most definitely did not teach learners to hold no views." then why would he teach that arahants abandon Right View? The most important view is to be abandoned? And if it is abandoned by arahants, why do arahants teach Right View? For example: If an astronomy teacher claims to have abandoned the view that the Earth is flat, and that their students should abandon this view as well, yet they call the flat Earth teachings "right view" and teach that this position is "right" constantly, does this make any sense?
See the simile of the raft in MN 22. That is pretty explicit although I vaguely recall something even more so. I'll take a look.

He didn't teach arahants to abandon Right View. According to the suttas, the state of the arahant is equal to Right View being abandoned.

Teachers teach Right View because it is needed to a position where All Views can be surmounted.

See the raft simile in MN 22 and I think it will make more sense.
Thanks. Reading it now.
Assume all of my words on dhamma could be incorrect. Seek an arahant for truth.


"If we base ourselves on the Pali Nikayas, then we should be compelled to conclude that Buddhism is realistic. There is no explicit denial anywhere of the external world. Nor is there any positive evidence to show that the world is mind-made or simply a projection of subjective thoughts. That Buddhism recognizes the extra-mental existence of matter and the external world is clearly suggested by the texts. Throughout the discourses it is the language of realism that one encounters.
-Y. Karunadasa
zan
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Re: Was the Buddha secretly teaching Ajnana doctrine?

Post by zan »

SDC wrote: Thu Jan 14, 2021 6:30 pm
zan wrote: Thu Jan 14, 2021 6:20 pm
SDC wrote: Thu Jan 14, 2021 6:15 pm Read AN 3.84 - essentially he said give up greed, hatred and delusion and you won't do anything unskilful by body, speech or mind.

Then read MN 74 to see what the Buddha had to say to the wanderer who claimed to hold no views.

Did the Buddha say that arahantship is even the abandoning of Right View? Yes he did, but most definitely did not teach learners to hold no views. That's denialistic and ignores the present wrong view that needs to be recognized.
Thank you. I'll read those soon. Where did he say that one must abandon Right View? If he "most definitely did not teach learners to hold no views." then why would he teach that arahants abandon Right View? The most important view is to be abandoned? And if it is abandoned by arahants, why do arahants teach Right View? For example: If an astronomy teacher claims to have abandoned the view that the Earth is flat, and that their students should abandon this view as well, yet they call the flat Earth teachings "right view" and teach that this position is "right" constantly, does this make any sense?
See the simile of the raft in MN 22. That is pretty explicit although I vaguely recall something even more so. I'll take a look.

He didn't teach arahants to abandon Right View. According to the suttas, the state of the arahant is equal to Right View being abandoned.

Teachers teach Right View because it is needed to a position where All Views can be surmounted.

See the raft simile in MN 22 and I think it will make more sense.
Doesn't sound unequivocally like the Buddha says that Right View must be abandoned. Rather it should not be held onto. Could simply mean that grasping at anything is bad, rather than having zero views whatsoever is the goal. This would mean that an arahant can teach right view, and hold it as correct, so long as they don't misapprehend it and grasp at it as an object of clinging.

At any rate, this sutta is a far cry from Nagarjuna and Pyrrhonism and their extreme scepticism of literally everything and holding absolutely no posiiton whatsoever. Would you agree on at least this point?

I wish I had access to the commentaries on this sutta. Oh well.
Assume all of my words on dhamma could be incorrect. Seek an arahant for truth.


"If we base ourselves on the Pali Nikayas, then we should be compelled to conclude that Buddhism is realistic. There is no explicit denial anywhere of the external world. Nor is there any positive evidence to show that the world is mind-made or simply a projection of subjective thoughts. That Buddhism recognizes the extra-mental existence of matter and the external world is clearly suggested by the texts. Throughout the discourses it is the language of realism that one encounters.
-Y. Karunadasa
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Re: Was the Buddha secretly teaching Ajnana doctrine?

Post by confusedlayman »

Buddha on seeing 3 charecteristic knowledge might have said no views cling.. abondon all views.. he fixed tbe cause that is ignorance

If heretic astetics says he dont have any views its because of ignorance and laziness.. he never rooted out cause and will have rebirth..
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
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Re: Was the Buddha secretly teaching Ajnana doctrine?

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zan wrote: Thu Jan 14, 2021 6:51 pm Doesn't sound unequivocally like the Buddha says that Right View must be abandoned. Rather it should not be held onto. Could simply mean that grasping at anything is bad, rather than having zero views whatsoever is the goal. This would mean that an arahant can teach right view, and hold it as correct, so long as they don't misapprehend it and grasp at it as an object of clinging.
MN 22 wrote:Bhikkhus, when you know the Dhamma to be similar to a raft, you should abandon even the teachings, how much more so things contrary to the teachings.
Yes, Right View is Right to the extent that it applies to the practice towards freedom from suffering. The arahant could reference it in order to describe it in the same way that he use "I am" to effectively communicate, but since suffering is destroyed, the Right View and the entire eightfold path, no longer applies to the experience of the arahant.

The raft and viper similes show up again in the following sutta, where the raft is explicitly referred to a the eightfold path within which there is Right View.
SN 35.238 wrote:The great expanse of water’: this is a designation for the four floods: the flood of sensuality, the flood of existence, the flood of views, and the flood of ignorance.

“‘The near shore, which is dangerous and fearful’: this is a designation for identity.

“‘The further shore, which is safe and free from danger’: this is a designation for Nibbāna.

“‘The raft’: this is a designation for the Noble Eightfold Path; that is, right view … right concentration.

“‘Making effort with hands and feet’: this is a designation for the arousing of energy.

“‘Crossed over, gone beyond, the brahmin stands on high ground’: this is a designation for the arahant.”
Like I said, I do believe there is something even more explicit. I'll keep looking.
Last edited by SDC on Thu Jan 14, 2021 7:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
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Re: Was the Buddha secretly teaching Ajnana doctrine?

Post by zan »

The raft simile does not unequicollay seem to support Nagarjuna nor the Pyrrhonist. See below:
“What would the sensible thing to do be? Here monks, he has crossed over to the far
bank he thinks: „this raft was very helpful to me in crossing the flood, now let me haul it up
to dry ground, or sink it in the water, and be on my way.‟ That, monks, is the sensible way to
act towards the raft. Just so, monks, I have taught the Dhamma as like a raft for ferrying, for
getting across.24 Monks, through understanding the Dhamma in terms of this parable, you
should renounce things, and more-so non-things.”


The last sentence is problematic. It tells us to reject dhammā and more so adhammā (both in the plural):
dhammāpi vo pahātabbā pageva adhammā. The words dhammā and adhammā have evoked a variety of
renderings. MA ii.109 says that „dhamma‟ here means calm and insight (samatha-vipassanā), specifically
craving for calm and insight, but this does not make a great deal of sense, someone on the other shore has no
craving to give up and one cannot abandon the raft before getting across. No modern exegetes seem to accept
Buddhaghosa‟s suggested interpretation. Horner interpreted the phrase as suggesting that we up morality at the
futher shore (see Keown 1992: 93). Horner‟s (1954) translation is “you should get rid even of (right) mental
objects, all the more of wrong ones.” (p.173-4). Gethin (2008) interprets dhammā/adhammā as “good
practices and bad practices” (p.161), which echos Buddhaghosa but is less specific. However „practice‟ is
hardly a usual translation for dhamma (one might even say it is a mistranslation).
Ñānamoli and Bodhi (2001) opt for the “teachings and things contrary to the teachings” which is at least a
possible translation. I am doubtful about dhammā in the plural being interpreted in the sense of „teaching‟ (I‟ll
continues…
5

return to this). Bodhi‟s footnote (p. 1209, n.255) acknowledges the ambiguity, and justifies his translation with
a pious homily. Thanissaro (2010) does not translate the key terms: “you should let go even of Dhammas, to
say nothing of non-Dhammas." The capitalisation implies that he understands „teachings‟, as dhammā as
„things‟ is seldom capitalised and he therefore has the same problem as Ñānamoli and Bodhi. Piya (2003) also
avoids committing himself: “you should abandon even the dharmas, how much more that which is not
dharmas” [sic]; and refers to MA and Bodhi‟s footnote for an explanation.
Richard Gombrich (1996) has weighed in with support for translating „teachings‟ and „non-teachings‟
however: “The Buddha concludes that his dhammā, his teachings are to be let go of, let alone adhammā. The
occasion for this whole discourse is given by Ariṭṭha, who obstinately declared that he understood the
Buddha‟s teaching in a certain [wrong] sense.” (p.24). The argument that dhammā in the last sentence is not
the dhamma referred to in the earlier parts of the passage Gombrich declares to be “sheer scholastic literalism”
(p.24), but I have been unable to locate another passage in which the Buddha uses dhammā in the plural to
describe his teachings. Gombirch comments on the irony of taking literally a text preaching against literalism
(p.22), with the implication that Ariṭṭha – to whom he emphasises the sutta was directed – is guilty of
literalism, or of clinging to the Dhamma. Arriṭṭha was guilty of subbornly refusing to relinquish a completely
wrong interpretation. He is not a literalist, but a fudger – his problem is that he does not take the Buddha‟s
injunction literally enough! That the simile of grasping the snake at the wrong end, which immediately
preceeds the raft simile, applies to Ariṭṭha we cannot doubt – he has misunderstood the teaching. The simile of
the raft appears to be talking about something entirely different, and unrelated to Ariṭṭha. I am inclined to
agree with Keown who speculates that the sutta is a composite of originally separate sections (p.96).
Jonardon Ganeri has attempted to problematise the idea of abandoning the teachings – basing his
discussion solely on Ñānamoli and Bodhi‟s translation. Firstly he says that if we take dhammā to mean
teachings then the teachings only have instrumental value (p.132). Ironically this is not really a problem from
a Buddhist point of view. His other argument, which relies on interpreting the Buddha‟s word as „Truth‟ is that
for one on the other side “truth ceases altogether to be something of value” (p.132). Again this is not really an
issue for Buddhism as truth as expressed in language is always provisional. The „Truth‟ (if there is such a
thing) is experiential, and on experiencing bodhi and vimutti one does not need provisional truth anymore.
Ganeri seems to misunderstand the pragmatic way Buddhism values truth – truth is whatever is helpful. This is
epitomised in two now cliched passages: in the Kesamutti Sutta (A i.188ff) where the Buddha tells the Kālāma
people to trust their own experience in determining right and wrong conduct; and at Vin ii.10 where the
Buddha tells his aunt Mahāpajāpatī that the Dhamma is whatever conducive to nibbāna.
If we accept Ñānamoli and Bodhi‟s „teachings and thngs contrary to the teachings‟ then we must state the
standard caveat, which is that one only abandons the teachings after reaching the further shore. Too often this
passage is used to attack doctrine being applied on this shore, or in the flood. There is no suggestion but that
we absolutely need the raft until we are safely on the other side.
Thus from various reputable scholars we get the full range of possibilities for translating dhammā:
„teaching, morality, things, mental objects‟.
This parable is also examined in depth by Keown (1992), where he points out that this is the only mention
of abandoning the raft (p.95) and that in other texts “it is made perfectly clear that sīla along with samādhi and
paññā are part of the further shore and are not left behind on the near side after enlightenment.” (p.95). As
Keown points out that in some texts the further shore is morality (e.g. A v.232, and v.252f ). I would add that
this idea that one abandons the Dhamma after enlightenment is flatly contradicted in the Gārava Sutta “I will
reverence, pay my respects, and dwell in subordination to that very thing [i.e. dhamma] to which I have fullyawakened” (Yaṃnūnāhaṃ yvāyaṃ dhammo mayā abhisambuddho tameva dhammaṃ sakkatvā garuṃ katvā
upanissāya vihareyyanti) S i.139. The Buddha himself does not give up on Dhamma, why should anyone else?
This militates against interpreting dhammā as „teachings‟. Keown‟s tentative translation is “…good things
(dhammā) must be left behind, much more so evil things (adhammā)” though he affirms the ambiguity.
However Keown notes that in other places where dhammā and adhammā are contrasted they seem to mean
good things and bad things (p.101). He concludes that the simile has two purposes: 1. to affirm that the
dhamma is for the purpose of salvation and no other purpose (this being the main point of the first part of the
Alagaddūpama Sutta); and 2. that we must not become emotionally attached to particular doctrines, practices,
teachings or philosophical views, and that none should assume a disproportionate status. But that things which
are unambiguously evil must certainly be rejected (p.102). Keown is at least thorough and pays attention to the
text, and tries to take the text on its own terms.
Despite this plethora of interpretations I have yet another. In light of the following discussion in the text of
things which exist (sati) or don‟t exist (asati), under my heading „Torment‟, I suggest that dhammā here is
„things‟ (that exist) and adhammā is „non-things‟ (things that don‟t exist). That is to say we must abandon
attachment to what we have, and to what we wish to have.
No single view of this simile appears to be unproblematic.
-The Snake Simile Discourse
Alagaddūpama Sutta, Majjhima Nikāya 22 (M i.130).
Jayarava Nov 2010
These thoughts, combined with the suttas provided by SDC above, where wanderers claiming viewlessness are criticized and the suttas in my op where extreme sceptics are outright called insulting names, pretty conclusively determines that this sutta does not mean arahants have no views whatsoever and particularly does not mean that they totally abandon right view and become positionless and viewless. If nothing else, someone who expounds on their own positionlessness and recommends others not hold views nor positions, holds the view and posiiton of positionlessness. One who truly held zero views nor positions would probably have nothing to teach nor recommend others.
Assume all of my words on dhamma could be incorrect. Seek an arahant for truth.


"If we base ourselves on the Pali Nikayas, then we should be compelled to conclude that Buddhism is realistic. There is no explicit denial anywhere of the external world. Nor is there any positive evidence to show that the world is mind-made or simply a projection of subjective thoughts. That Buddhism recognizes the extra-mental existence of matter and the external world is clearly suggested by the texts. Throughout the discourses it is the language of realism that one encounters.
-Y. Karunadasa
zan
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Re: Was the Buddha secretly teaching Ajnana doctrine?

Post by zan »

SDC wrote: Thu Jan 14, 2021 7:19 pm
zan wrote: Thu Jan 14, 2021 6:51 pm Doesn't sound unequivocally like the Buddha says that Right View must be abandoned. Rather it should not be held onto. Could simply mean that grasping at anything is bad, rather than having zero views whatsoever is the goal. This would mean that an arahant can teach right view, and hold it as correct, so long as they don't misapprehend it and grasp at it as an object of clinging.
MN 22 wrote:Bhikkhus, when you know the Dhamma to be similar to a raft, you should abandon even the teachings, how much more so things contrary to the teachings.
Yes, Right View is Right to the extent that it applies to the practice towards freedom from suffering. The arahant could reference it in order to describe it in the same way that he use "I am" to effectively communicate, but since suffering is destroyed, the Right View and the entire eightfold path, no longer applies to the experience of the arahant.

The raft and viper similes show up again in the following sutta, where the raft is explicitly referred to a the eightfold path within which there is Right View.
SN 35.328 wrote:The great expanse of water’: this is a designation for the four floods: the flood of sensuality, the flood of existence, the flood of views, and the flood of ignorance.

“‘The near shore, which is dangerous and fearful’: this is a designation for identity.

“‘The further shore, which is safe and free from danger’: this is a designation for Nibbāna.

“‘The raft’: this is a designation for the Noble Eightfold Path; that is, right view … right concentration.

“‘Making effort with hands and feet’: this is a designation for the arousing of energy.

“‘Crossed over, gone beyond, the brahmin stands on high ground’: this is a designation for the arahant.”
Like I said, I do believe there is something even more explicit. I'll keep looking.
Thanks! SN 35.328? Can't find that one.
Assume all of my words on dhamma could be incorrect. Seek an arahant for truth.


"If we base ourselves on the Pali Nikayas, then we should be compelled to conclude that Buddhism is realistic. There is no explicit denial anywhere of the external world. Nor is there any positive evidence to show that the world is mind-made or simply a projection of subjective thoughts. That Buddhism recognizes the extra-mental existence of matter and the external world is clearly suggested by the texts. Throughout the discourses it is the language of realism that one encounters.
-Y. Karunadasa
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SDC
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Re: Was the Buddha secretly teaching Ajnana doctrine?

Post by SDC »

“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
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