Non-return needed to truly know no-self

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
auto
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Re: Non-return needed to truly know no-self

Post by auto »

SteRo wrote: Tue Jan 19, 2021 6:11 am
auto wrote: Mon Jan 18, 2021 9:34 pm ...
May you be happy with your goal. I don't envy you for it.
of course its "your goal" otherwise it wouldn't apply to your philosophy. Do you know what is deficiency in spirit? you are having only one set of actions and apply it to whatever you do, you never come out of your character.
SteRo
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Re: Non-return needed to truly know no-self

Post by SteRo »

auto wrote: Tue Jan 19, 2021 3:08 pm
SteRo wrote: Tue Jan 19, 2021 6:11 am
auto wrote: Mon Jan 18, 2021 9:34 pm ...
May you be happy with your goal. I don't envy you for it.
of course its "your goal" otherwise it wouldn't apply to your philosophy.
Don't know what "philosophy" you are referring to. It's been called "your goal" since you came up with it and started advocating this idea of yours. So it's obviously not mine, right?
auto wrote: Tue Jan 19, 2021 3:08 pm Do you know what is deficiency in spirit? you are having only one set of actions and apply it to whatever you do, you never come out of your character.
Again these are ideas of yours. You see "deficiency" in what does not affirm your own ideas. I don't have a "character".
Exhaling अ and inhaling धीः amounts to བྷྲཱུཾ་བི་ཤྭ་བི་ཤུད་དྷེ It's definitely not science but science may provide guidelines nevertheless.
auto
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Re: Non-return needed to truly know no-self

Post by auto »

SteRo wrote: Tue Jan 19, 2021 3:16 pm
auto wrote: Tue Jan 19, 2021 3:08 pm
SteRo wrote: Tue Jan 19, 2021 6:11 am

May you be happy with your goal. I don't envy you for it.
of course its "your goal" otherwise it wouldn't apply to your philosophy.
Don't know what "philosophy" you are referring to. It's been called "your goal" since you came up with it and started advocating this idea of yours. So it's obviously not mine, right?
auto wrote: Tue Jan 19, 2021 3:08 pm Do you know what is deficiency in spirit? you are having only one set of actions and apply it to whatever you do, you never come out of your character.
Again these are ideas of yours. You see "deficiency" in what does not affirm your own ideas. I don't have a "character".
This post is good example of your philosophy. I bet you think you are completely invisible for common people since what you think can't be apprehended in any sort of way that even the clothes you wear are invisible.
Last edited by auto on Tue Jan 19, 2021 3:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
SteRo
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Re: Non-return needed to truly know no-self

Post by SteRo »

auto wrote: Tue Jan 19, 2021 3:31 pm
SteRo wrote: Tue Jan 19, 2021 3:16 pm
auto wrote: Tue Jan 19, 2021 3:08 pm
of course its "your goal" otherwise it wouldn't apply to your philosophy.
Don't know what "philosophy" you are referring to. It's been called "your goal" since you came up with it and started advocating this idea of yours. So it's obviously not mine, right?
auto wrote: Tue Jan 19, 2021 3:08 pm Do you know what is deficiency in spirit? you are having only one set of actions and apply it to whatever you do, you never come out of your character.
Again these are ideas of yours. You see "deficiency" in what does not affirm your own ideas. I don't have a "character".
This post is good example of your philosophy.
Ok, let's call it my "don't know my philosophy"-philosophy.
Exhaling अ and inhaling धीः amounts to བྷྲཱུཾ་བི་ཤྭ་བི་ཤུད་དྷེ It's definitely not science but science may provide guidelines nevertheless.
auto
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Re: Non-return needed to truly know no-self

Post by auto »

SteRo wrote: Tue Jan 19, 2021 3:34 pm
auto wrote: Tue Jan 19, 2021 3:31 pm
SteRo wrote: Tue Jan 19, 2021 3:16 pm
Don't know what "philosophy" you are referring to. It's been called "your goal" since you came up with it and started advocating this idea of yours. So it's obviously not mine, right?


Again these are ideas of yours. You see "deficiency" in what does not affirm your own ideas. I don't have a "character".
This post is good example of your philosophy.
Ok, let's call it my "don't know my philosophy"-philosophy.
Another good example of your philosophy.
SteRo
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Re: Non-return needed to truly know no-self

Post by SteRo »

auto wrote: Tue Jan 19, 2021 3:36 pm
SteRo wrote: Tue Jan 19, 2021 3:34 pm
auto wrote: Tue Jan 19, 2021 3:31 pm
This post is good example of your philosophy.
Ok, let's call it my "don't know my philosophy"-philosophy.
Another good example of your philosophy.
There is nothing that does not match my "don't know my philosophy"-philosophy. Countless examples. :D
Exhaling अ and inhaling धीः amounts to བྷྲཱུཾ་བི་ཤྭ་བི་ཤུད་དྷེ It's definitely not science but science may provide guidelines nevertheless.
auto
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Re: Non-return needed to truly know no-self

Post by auto »

SteRo wrote: Tue Jan 19, 2021 3:16 pm Again these are ideas of yours. You see "deficiency" in what does not affirm your own ideas. I don't have a "character".
how i see deficiency in what does not affirm my own ideas?

I think you don't take into account that people can empathize with one another. Perhaps you are applying no self theory here and made a philosophy out of it.
People can observe other people and make guesses what are consistent.
SteRo
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Re: Non-return needed to truly know no-self

Post by SteRo »

auto wrote: Tue Jan 19, 2021 3:54 pm
SteRo wrote: Tue Jan 19, 2021 3:16 pm Again these are ideas of yours. You see "deficiency" in what does not affirm your own ideas. I don't have a "character".
how i see deficiency in what does not affirm my own ideas?

I think you don't take into account that people can empathize with one another.
Do you want me to affirm your idea out of empathy? :lol:
auto wrote: Tue Jan 19, 2021 3:54 pm Perhaps you are applying no self theory here and made a philosophy out of it.
Not "no self" but "not self". See? Your "goal of spiritual life" isn't self and does not belong to self. Now you might not share my experience and therefore what is expression of that experience might appear to you as "philosophy" or "theory".
Since I cannot show my experience to you I switch to logic of conventional language: you brought up that idea and therefore it's called "your idea" and "your idea" isn't "my idea". Got it?
auto wrote: Tue Jan 19, 2021 3:54 pm People can observe other people and make guesses what are consistent.
Of course, based on unproven assumptions/preoccupations guesses can be made that then appear as if consistent because they are guesses to support the unproven assumptions/preoccupations.
Exhaling अ and inhaling धीः amounts to བྷྲཱུཾ་བི་ཤྭ་བི་ཤུད་དྷེ It's definitely not science but science may provide guidelines nevertheless.
auto
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Re: Non-return needed to truly know no-self

Post by auto »

SteRo wrote: Tue Jan 19, 2021 4:07 pm
auto wrote: Tue Jan 19, 2021 3:54 pm
SteRo wrote: Tue Jan 19, 2021 3:16 pm Again these are ideas of yours. You see "deficiency" in what does not affirm your own ideas. I don't have a "character".
how i see deficiency in what does not affirm my own ideas?

I think you don't take into account that people can empathize with one another.
Do you want me to affirm your idea out of empathy? :lol:
auto wrote: Tue Jan 19, 2021 3:54 pm Perhaps you are applying no self theory here and made a philosophy out of it.
Not "no self" but "not self". See? Your "goal of spiritual life" isn't self and does not belong to self. Now you might not share my experience and therefore what is expression of that experience might appear to you as "philosophy" or "theory".
Since I cannot show my experience to you I switch to logic of conventional language: you brought up that idea and therefore it's called "your idea" and "your idea" isn't "my idea". Got it?
auto wrote: Tue Jan 19, 2021 3:54 pm People can observe other people and make guesses what are consistent.
Of course, based on unproven assumptions/preoccupations guesses can be made that then appear as if consistent because they are guesses to support the unproven assumptions/preoccupations.
I don't make difference in no self and not self, so i don't see.
I have explained what could be meant with the goal of spiritual life. I put Sutta quote as a source.
https://suttacentral.net/sn22.69/en/sujato wrote:“Sir, form doesn’t belong to self; I should give up desire for it.“Rūpaṃ kho, bhante, anattaniyaṃ; tatra me chando pahātabbo.
Feeling …Vedanā …
If you not like the goal of spiritual life being about giving up desire for what doesn't belong to self, well, you still should give up the desire what doesn't belong to self.
I just put two things together, which when separate doesn't change anything anyway in respect to what should be done.

When you say it is my idea, it doesn't change anything in terms of what should be done. What you are doing in order to avoid what should be done is because you falsely think that it is my idea.

Could that be summarized that you think it is Theravada, to get rid of craving, escape dukkha etc? and you are not Theravada so it won't apply to you, implying that the Suttas are Theravada and not about the way what also past buddhas walked on?
SteRo wrote: Tue Jan 19, 2021 4:07 pmSince I cannot show my experience to you I switch to logic of conventional language
why you can't? because you don't have any experience what could be expressed and then other people could know it(oh that is that)?

Interesting mention is that you sound more fit to be in society, work and give back something to society than me.
SteRo
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Re: Non-return needed to truly know no-self

Post by SteRo »

auto wrote: Tue Jan 19, 2021 4:36 pm I have explained what could be meant with the goal of spiritual life. I put Sutta quote as a source.
https://suttacentral.net/sn22.69/en/sujato wrote:“Sir, form doesn’t belong to self; I should give up desire for it.“Rūpaṃ kho, bhante, anattaniyaṃ; tatra me chando pahātabbo.
Feeling …Vedanā …
If you not like the goal of spiritual life being about giving up desire for what doesn't belong to self, well, you still should give up the desire what doesn't belong to self.
Yes. In my case the "goal of spiritual life" does not belong to self so I give up desire for it, too.
auto wrote: Tue Jan 19, 2021 4:36 pm When you say it is my idea, it doesn't change anything in terms of what should be done. What you are doing in order to avoid what should be done is because you falsely think that it is my idea.
Well it is your idea, definitely the expression "goal of spiritual life" is yours. But even if it would occur to me, if it would occur that the idea "goal of spiritual life" would arise in my mind, I would give up that idea. Why? Because it is not me, nor belongs to me, it is not self, nor belongs to self.
auto wrote: Tue Jan 19, 2021 4:36 pm Could that be summarized that you think it is Theravada, to get rid of craving, escape dukkha etc? and you are not Theravada so it won't apply to you, implying that the Suttas are Theravada and not about the way what also past buddhas walked on?
I find theravada doctrine very interesting. It is even very inspiring but theravada doctrine also is not self nor belongs to self, is not me, nor belongs to me.
So let me make explicit that I do not claim that the application of 'not self' characteristic to theravada doctrine would be in line with theravada doctrine because it is not. My application of 'not self' to theravada doctrine actually is a deviation from theravada doctrine but that does not matter in my case.
Exhaling अ and inhaling धीः amounts to བྷྲཱུཾ་བི་ཤྭ་བི་ཤུད་དྷེ It's definitely not science but science may provide guidelines nevertheless.
coconut
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Re: Non-return needed to truly know no-self

Post by coconut »

SteRo wrote: Tue Jan 19, 2021 4:52 pm
Yes. In my case the "goal of spiritual life" does not belong to self so I give up desire for it, too.

Ah, so you have abandoned the raft. I take it you're an arahant then? And please don't respond with "there is no arahant", or "there is no self that is an arahant" or whatever nonsense, you know what I mean.
SteRo
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Re: Non-return needed to truly know no-self

Post by SteRo »

coconut wrote: Tue Jan 19, 2021 5:11 pm
SteRo wrote: Tue Jan 19, 2021 4:52 pm
Yes. In my case the "goal of spiritual life" does not belong to self so I give up desire for it, too.

Ah, so you have abandoned the raft. I take it you're an arahant then? And please don't respond with "there is no arahant", or "there is no self that is an arahant" or whatever nonsense, you know what I mean.
You are applying theravada doctrine which does not apply in my case because I am not a theravada follower. So you must not impute doctrinal concepts like "raft" or "arahant" to my words that don't apply to my words.
As said I find theravada doctrine very interesting and very inspiring but not being a theravada follower myself I can freely apply theravada's own 'not self' to theravada's doctrinal concepts.
Exhaling अ and inhaling धीः amounts to བྷྲཱུཾ་བི་ཤྭ་བི་ཤུད་དྷེ It's definitely not science but science may provide guidelines nevertheless.
auto
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Re: Non-return needed to truly know no-self

Post by auto »

SteRo wrote: Tue Jan 19, 2021 4:52 pm Yes. In my case the "goal of spiritual life" does not belong to self so I give up desire for it, too.
ok, so you don't have goal of spiritual life. I think that is also my idea here, since who knows what you mean by the words you write or by default whatever i respond is "my idea".
SteRo wrote: Tue Jan 19, 2021 4:52 pm Well it is your idea, definitely the expression "goal of spiritual life" is yours. But even if it would occur to me, if it would occur that the idea "goal of spiritual life" would arise in my mind, I would give up that idea. Why? Because it is not me, nor belongs to me, it is not self, nor belongs to self.
in some sense i'm guilty
Form doesn’t belong to self; you should give up desire for it.
..
This is how to understand the detailed meaning of what I said in brief.” …

And that mendicant became one of the perfected
Mendicant became arhant. You can use any other Sutta what speaks of becoming arhant and infer.
They understand: ‘Rebirth is ended, the spiritual journey has been completed, what had to be done has been done, there is no return to any state of existence.’
if the idea "goal of spiritual life" arises in your mind, it is just as any other idea arises in your mind. If you smell smoke then the idea of fire arises in your mind, i don't think you will disregard it 'just' an idea of your senses, but feel some urgency.
In that sense you might not see any relevance with the goal of spiritual life. But it arises because of the danger of having desires.
SteRo wrote: Tue Jan 19, 2021 4:52 pm I find theravada doctrine very interesting. It is even very inspiring but theravada doctrine also is not self nor belongs to self, is not me, nor belongs to me.
So let me make explicit that I do not claim that the application of 'not self' characteristic to theravada doctrine would be in line with theravada doctrine because it is not. My application of 'not self' to theravada doctrine actually is a deviation from theravada doctrine but that does not matter in my case.
Then you are also not aiming for the enlightenment?
coconut
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Re: Non-return needed to truly know no-self

Post by coconut »

SteRo wrote: Tue Jan 19, 2021 5:17 pm
coconut wrote: Tue Jan 19, 2021 5:11 pm
SteRo wrote: Tue Jan 19, 2021 4:52 pm
Yes. In my case the "goal of spiritual life" does not belong to self so I give up desire for it, too.

Ah, so you have abandoned the raft. I take it you're an arahant then? And please don't respond with "there is no arahant", or "there is no self that is an arahant" or whatever nonsense, you know what I mean.
You are applying theravada doctrine which does not apply in my case because I am not a theravada follower. So you must not impute doctrinal concepts like "raft" or "arahant" to my words that don't apply to my words.
As said I find theravada doctrine very interesting and very inspiring but not being a theravada follower myself I can freely apply theravada's own 'not self' to theravada's doctrinal concepts.
"Theravada" is just a concept, it doesn't really exist. "Arahant" simply means one has reached the goal, the end. "Goal" doesn't exist either, neither does "end", as in reality there is no "beginning" or "end".

"Dhamma" just means instructions, and instruction for what? There is no self to instruct. This forum, is just people trading concepts that are not real. Why are you here? Here is not really a thing either. So why are you on this website? What do you aim to achieve? There is nothing to achieve, and nothing to aim for.

So in short, you are simply a fart in the wind, a stink that annoys others with bullshit.

And if you noticed, this is the "General Theravada forum", therefore acknowledging theravada concepts is required here, you shouldn't post in forums that you do not wish to follow the contextual rules of. If "rules" don't exist for you, then perhaps the mods should remind you. You're better off posting in /r/awakened on reddit, they all have the same "nothing exists" view as you. You should go annoy them, rather than annoying sincere followers of the dhamma.
SteRo
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Re: Non-return needed to truly know no-self

Post by SteRo »

auto wrote: Tue Jan 19, 2021 5:36 pm ...
Then you are also not aiming for the enlightenment?
Hey auto, let's acknowledge the post of coconut who is totally right that this forum section is about the theravada doctrine and not about 'personal experience' for which there is another forum section.
So if you want to have a conversation about 'personal experience' please be referred to the forum section 'personal experience'.

I would like to encourage conversation about theravada doctrine in this forum section because this forum section is dedicated to this purpose.
Exhaling अ and inhaling धीः amounts to བྷྲཱུཾ་བི་ཤྭ་བི་ཤུད་དྷེ It's definitely not science but science may provide guidelines nevertheless.
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