I would like to clarify the Dhukka in the four noble truths

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Coëmgenu
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Re: I would like to clarify the Dhukka in the four noble truths

Post by Coëmgenu »

When you feel your refutation is "thorough," tell me and I will respond then, pausing work on the DO thread and the Classical Madhyamaka thread as well as other casual projects I am working on during lockdown. Suffice to say, obviously I do not think it is anywhere near "thorough," so I am giving you some more time to come up with some better material unless you do not want to take said time and feel your response as-is is sufficient and "thorough."
Last edited by Coëmgenu on Fri Feb 19, 2021 10:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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DooDoot
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Re: I would like to clarify the Dhukka in the four noble truths

Post by DooDoot »

Coëmgenu wrote: Fri Feb 19, 2021 9:58 pm When you feel your refutation is "thorough," tell me and I will respond then, pausing work on the DO thread and the Classical Madhyamaka thread as well as other casual projects I am working on during lockdown. Suffice to say, obviously I do not think it is anywhere near "thorough," so I am giving you some more time to come up with some better material.
But my refutation was thorough because you were not able to refute it. :smile:

A non-Buddhist cannot refute the True Dhamma.

Again:
Seyyathāpi, bhikkhave, rajako vā cittakārako vā rajanāya vā lākhāya vā haliddiyā vā nīliyā vā mañjiṭṭhāyamañjiṭṭha: crimson. (adj.) vā suparimaṭṭhe phalake vā bhittiyā vā dussapaṭṭe vā itthirūpaṃ vā purisarūpaṃ vā abhinimmineyya sabbaṅgapaccaṅgiṃ; evameva kho, bhikkhave, assutavā puthujjano rūpaññeva abhinibbattento abhinibbatteti, vedanaññeva … pe … saññaññeva … saṅkhāreyeva … viññāṇaññeva abhinibbattento abhinibbatteti. Taṃ kiṃ maññatha, bhikkhave, rūpaṃ niccaṃ vā aniccaṃ vā”ti? “Aniccaṃ, bhante”. “Vedanā … saññā … saṅkhārā … viññāṇaṃ … pe … “tasmātiha, bhikkhave … pe … evaṃ passaṃ … pe … nāparaṃ itthattāyāti pajānātī”ti.

Suppose, bhikkhus, an artist or a painter, using dye or lac or turmeric or indigo or crimson, would create the figure of a man or a woman complete in all its features on a well-polished plank or wall or canvas. So too, when the uninstructed worldling produces anything, it is only form that he produces; only feeling that he produces; only perception that he produces; only volitional formations that he produces; only consciousness that he produces. What do you think, bhikkhus, is form permanent or impermanent?”—“Impermanent, venerable sir.”…—“Therefore … Seeing thus … He understands: ‘… there is no more for this state of being.’”

SN 22.100
When Sujato said: ". abhinibbatti = rebirth (pretty much only used in this sense)" he was obviously mistaken. :smile:

:focus:
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Coëmgenu
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Re: I would like to clarify the Dhukka in the four noble truths

Post by Coëmgenu »

DooDoot wrote: Fri Feb 19, 2021 10:00 pmBut my refutation as thorough because you were not able to refute it. :smile:
Once again, premature. You have a habit of declaring victory prematurely. Did you take lessons from the former Bush administration?

Ven Sujato says "abhinibbatti = rebirth (pretty much only used in this sense)"

DooDoot points out two examples, one wherein a fire is produced ("caused to be") and one wherein vipaka is produced. Then, you gave us a Ven Bodhi footnote that says another sense abhinibbatti can have is "reconception." After that, you said that Ven Sujato's ideas are "infantile" and asked "Since when was the 'eye' subject to 'reincarnation?'"

This is the work of the so-called executioner who defeats, the alleged victor, whose refutation is "thorough." He thoroughly refutes by saying "Since when was the 'eye' subject to 'reincarnation?'" The thing is, Ven Sujato never suggested that rebirth is the only sense of abhinibbatti. DooDoot gives us another premature performance wherein he claims victory but has failed to understand the words of his interlocutor.
Last edited by Coëmgenu on Fri Feb 19, 2021 10:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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DooDoot
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Re: I would like to clarify the Dhukka in the four noble truths

Post by DooDoot »

Coëmgenu wrote: Fri Feb 19, 2021 10:06 pm The thing is, Ven Sujato never suggested that rebirth is the only sense of abhinibbatti.
No. Sujato's claim was 100% wrong because it 100% ignored how abhinibbatti is used and what the word means in UNAMBIGUOUS CONTEXTS and then inferred a wrong meaning of the word from another error, namely, the use of the word in the definition of "jati", which Sujato is AMBIGIOUS about.

The word abhinibbatti does not mean "rebirth" and can never mean "rebirth".

"Jati" also does not mean "rebirth" and has never meant "rebirth".

"Jati" means "birth" and never means "rebirth".

There is no Pali word in the suttas that literally means "rebirth" ("reincarnation"), as stated by Yuttadhammo monk.
Last edited by DooDoot on Fri Feb 19, 2021 10:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati
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Coëmgenu
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Re: I would like to clarify the Dhukka in the four noble truths

Post by Coëmgenu »

His claim was that it was "pretty much only used in this sense." So does the fact that there are other senses 100% refute his claim and mean that it is "100 % wrong" etc.? Is that a "thorough" refutation, or did you misunderstand the claim itself?
Last edited by Coëmgenu on Fri Feb 19, 2021 10:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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DooDoot
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Re: I would like to clarify the Dhukka in the four noble truths

Post by DooDoot »

Coëmgenu wrote: Fri Feb 19, 2021 10:16 pm His claim was that it was "pretty much only used in this sense." So does that there are other senses 100% refute his claim? Is that a "thorough" refutation, or did you misunderstand the claim itself?
Sorry but this matter is closed. You continue to rely on a monk and make trivial answers. You were defeated again.

There is no place in the suttas where abhinibbatti is unambiguously used to mean "rebirth'.
Last edited by DooDoot on Fri Feb 19, 2021 10:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati
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Coëmgenu
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Re: I would like to clarify the Dhukka in the four noble truths

Post by Coëmgenu »

Premature, again.

:juggling:

:focus:
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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DooDoot
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Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:06 pm

Re: I would like to clarify the Dhukka in the four noble truths

Post by DooDoot »

Coëmgenu wrote: Fri Feb 19, 2021 10:17 pm Premature, again.
Trivial again. Unlearned again. Nonsense again. You need to quote sutta. :reading:
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati
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Coëmgenu
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Re: I would like to clarify the Dhukka in the four noble truths

Post by Coëmgenu »

"Again," like the Sanskrit word "punar" in "punarbhava," etc.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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DooDoot
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Re: I would like to clarify the Dhukka in the four noble truths

Post by DooDoot »

Coëmgenu wrote: Fri Feb 19, 2021 10:19 pm "Again," like the Sanskrit word "punar" in "punarbhava," etc.
The topic is abhinibbatti :focus:

Also, "bhava" does not mean "rebirth". :thinking:

"Bhava" is one of three asava .
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati
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Coëmgenu
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Re: I would like to clarify the Dhukka in the four noble truths

Post by Coëmgenu »

DooDoot wrote: Fri Feb 19, 2021 10:20 pmThe topic is abhinibbatti :focus:
Are you sure, or have you forgotten what the thread was about prior to your grilling of the confused layman for believing in rebirth? I think the topic is actually clarifying duhkha in the four noble truths. This is a subconversation concerning context you withheld from the confused layman while you grilled him, i.e. that you do not believe in rebirth.

:focus:
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
User avatar
DooDoot
Posts: 12032
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:06 pm

Re: I would like to clarify the Dhukka in the four noble truths

Post by DooDoot »

Coëmgenu wrote: Fri Feb 19, 2021 10:25 pm Are you sure, or have you forgotten what the thread was about prior to your grilling of the confused layman for believing in rebirth? I think the topic is actually clarifying duhkha in the four noble truths. This is a subconversation concerning context you withheld from the confused layman while you grilled him, i.e. that you do not believe in rebirth.
OK. Return to topic and stop your pointless departure when you defended your brother in doctrine Confused Layman. :console:
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati
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