I would like to clarify the Dhukka in the four noble truths

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
User avatar
confusedlayman
Posts: 6231
Joined: Fri Jun 21, 2019 12:16 am
Location: Human Realm (as of now)

Re: I would like to clarify the Dhukka in the four noble truths

Post by confusedlayman »

DooDoot wrote: Fri Feb 19, 2021 9:39 am
confusedlayman wrote: Fri Feb 19, 2021 9:39 am in previous life u have one body, now u have different body
where do the four noble truths say this? :shrug: :roll:

what is the "u" that gains & loses aggregates? :shrug: :roll:
based on language we say u me to 5 aggregates but they are not when investigated.. there s scope and limitation for language
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
User avatar
DooDoot
Posts: 12032
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:06 pm

Re: I would like to clarify the Dhukka in the four noble truths

Post by DooDoot »

confusedlayman wrote: Fri Feb 19, 2021 9:41 am based on language we say u me to 5 aggregates but they are not when investigated.. there s scope and limitation for language
U did not answer the question about "what is it" that gains & loses five aggregates?
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati
User avatar
confusedlayman
Posts: 6231
Joined: Fri Jun 21, 2019 12:16 am
Location: Human Realm (as of now)

Re: I would like to clarify the Dhukka in the four noble truths

Post by confusedlayman »

DooDoot wrote: Fri Feb 19, 2021 9:44 am
confusedlayman wrote: Fri Feb 19, 2021 9:41 am based on language we say u me to 5 aggregates but they are not when investigated.. there s scope and limitation for language
U did not answer the question about "what is it" that gains & loses five aggregates?
5 aggregates that changes in to new 5 aggregates..

the question `"what is it" is wrong question... :rofl:
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
User avatar
DooDoot
Posts: 12032
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:06 pm

Re: I would like to clarify the Dhukka in the four noble truths

Post by DooDoot »

confusedlayman wrote: Fri Feb 19, 2021 9:46 am 5 aggregates that changes in to new 5 aggregates..
if 5 aggregates that changes in to new 5 aggregates, why did you post: "birth is getting new aggregates after loosing old aggregates?" :shrug: :roll:
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati
User avatar
confusedlayman
Posts: 6231
Joined: Fri Jun 21, 2019 12:16 am
Location: Human Realm (as of now)

Re: I would like to clarify the Dhukka in the four noble truths

Post by confusedlayman »

DooDoot wrote: Fri Feb 19, 2021 9:47 am
confusedlayman wrote: Fri Feb 19, 2021 9:46 am 5 aggregates that changes in to new 5 aggregates..
if 5 aggregates that changes in to new 5 aggregates, why did you post: "birth is getting new aggregates after loosing old aggregates?" :shrug: :roll:
language and conventional usage
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
User avatar
DooDoot
Posts: 12032
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:06 pm

Re: I would like to clarify the Dhukka in the four noble truths

Post by DooDoot »

confusedlayman wrote: Fri Feb 19, 2021 9:49 am language and conventional usage
nonsense and conventional nonsense

how does old five aggregates change into new five aggregates? :shrug: :roll:

how does five aggregates of old man change into five aggregates of baby boy or girl? :shrug: :roll:
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati
User avatar
confusedlayman
Posts: 6231
Joined: Fri Jun 21, 2019 12:16 am
Location: Human Realm (as of now)

Re: I would like to clarify the Dhukka in the four noble truths

Post by confusedlayman »

DooDoot wrote: Fri Feb 19, 2021 9:50 am
confusedlayman wrote: Fri Feb 19, 2021 9:49 am language and conventional usage
nonsense and conventional nonsense

how does old five aggregates change into new five aggregates? :shrug: :roll:
do u know dependent origination from own experience? not just parroting what is given in text.. if so can u elaborate using real life example so I can understand and rectify if I understood wrongly..
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
User avatar
DooDoot
Posts: 12032
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:06 pm

Re: I would like to clarify the Dhukka in the four noble truths

Post by DooDoot »

confusedlayman wrote: Fri Feb 19, 2021 9:53 am if so can u elaborate using real life example so I can understand and rectify if I understood wrongly..
no... you cannot understand & rectify; based on our past experience :focus:

how does old five aggregates change into new five aggregates? :shrug: :roll:

how does five aggregates of old man change into five aggregates of baby boy or girl? :shrug: :roll:
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati
User avatar
confusedlayman
Posts: 6231
Joined: Fri Jun 21, 2019 12:16 am
Location: Human Realm (as of now)

Re: I would like to clarify the Dhukka in the four noble truths

Post by confusedlayman »

DooDoot wrote: Fri Feb 19, 2021 9:58 am
confusedlayman wrote: Fri Feb 19, 2021 9:53 am if so can u elaborate using real life example so I can understand and rectify if I understood wrongly..
no... you cannot understand & rectify; based on our past experience :focus:

how does old five aggregates change into new five aggregates? :shrug: :roll:

how does five aggregates of old man change into five aggregates of baby boy or girl? :shrug: :roll:
old change to new due to craving and ignorance and cause and condiiton and dependent origination

old man change to baby boy (if u mean size of form) only in next life if it enters womb
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
User avatar
DooDoot
Posts: 12032
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:06 pm

Re: I would like to clarify the Dhukka in the four noble truths

Post by DooDoot »

confusedlayman wrote: Fri Feb 19, 2021 9:53 am do u know dependent origination from own experience? not just parroting what is given in text..
the above is wrong view. the text is the personal experience of the buddha
confusedlayman wrote: Fri Feb 19, 2021 9:53 amif so can u elaborate using real life example so I can understand and rectify if I understood wrongly..
if you cannot understand the Buddha, you cannot understand me. possibly you can understand, here
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati
User avatar
Coëmgenu
Posts: 8150
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2016 10:55 pm
Location: Whitby, Canada

Re: I would like to clarify the Dhukka in the four noble truths

Post by Coëmgenu »

DooDoot does not believe in rebirth. This deeply colours his understanding of DO, which he “understands” to not be the process of how rebirth occurs. This is vital context missing to the discussion between him and the confused layman. It is important that Buddhists know when they are discussing with someone claiming to be a Buddhist who also does not believe in rebirth, because the way they understand the Dharma will be fundamentally and irreconcilably different. The rebirth naysayer needs to reinvent the Dharma to have the Buddha not describing wandering between abodes. They need to say “such and such does not mean ‘rebirth’” for countless instances, etc.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
User avatar
DooDoot
Posts: 12032
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:06 pm

Re: I would like to clarify the Dhukka in the four noble truths

Post by DooDoot »

Coëmgenu wrote: Fri Feb 19, 2021 8:48 pm DooDoot does not believe in rebirth. This deeply colours his understanding of DO, which he “understands” to not be the process of how rebirth occurs.
"Rebirth" appears never mentioned in DO
Coëmgenu wrote: Fri Feb 19, 2021 8:48 pmThis is vital context missing to the discussion between him and the confused layman.
DD never denied "rebirth" to the Confused Layman. DD simply asked the Confused Layman to explain his views.
Coëmgenu wrote: Fri Feb 19, 2021 8:48 pmIt is important that Buddhists know when they are discussing with someone claiming to be a Buddhist who also does not believe in rebirth, because the way they understand the Dharma will be fundamentally and irreconcilably different.
Coëmgenu appears to not be a Buddhist. Is there actually a Pali word that means "rebirth" ("reincarnation") in the suttas? Which is it? Thanks :thanks:
Coëmgenu wrote: Fri Feb 19, 2021 8:48 pmThe rebirth naysayer needs to reinvent the Dharma to have the Buddha not describing wandering between abodes.
SN 22.79 appears the only sutta that clearly explains the above. It appears not about "rebirth".
Coëmgenu wrote: Fri Feb 19, 2021 8:48 pmThey need to say “such and such does not mean ‘rebirth’” for countless instances, etc.
No. It is Coëmgenu that must substantiate their view. Possibly Coëmgenu can tell us which Pali word from the suttas literally means "rebirth" ("reincarnation")? :thanks:

:focus:
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati
User avatar
Coëmgenu
Posts: 8150
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2016 10:55 pm
Location: Whitby, Canada

Re: I would like to clarify the Dhukka in the four noble truths

Post by Coëmgenu »

DooDoot wrote: Fri Feb 19, 2021 8:57 pmPossibly Coëmgenu can tell us which Pali word from the suttas literally means "rebirth" ("reincarnation")? :thanks:
I think Venerable Sujato did a better job answering your question five years ago, so I am going to defer to him, as I agree with everything he said to you back then and still agree today:
[Ven Sujato from the conversation in the link]

Well, most of these are just verbal variations, i.e. different forms of the same word. As for the distinct terms, we have:

1. abhinibbatti = rebirth (pretty much only used in this sense)
2. opapātika = spontaneously reborn, i.e. like the gods (this is technically just a verbal derivation from uppatti = uppajjati, but is used in this specific sense.)
3. paccājāyati = paṭi + ā + jāyati i.e. literally “re + born”. (Sometimes people assert that there is no word that means “rebirth” in pali. Apart from being a nonsensical way of thinking about language, you can direct them this way, for paccājāyati is a close a direct linguistic equivalent of “rebirth” as you could hope for.)
4. upapajjati = “to be reborn” the more common verb used in the same sense as paccājāyati.
5. uppajjati = “arises”, used in a general sense, in some cases overlapping with that of rebirth; consider for example the common phrase Tathāgato loke uppajjati (“A Realized One arises in the world …”) It doesn’t quite mean that he is reborn, but it’s not all that different in meaning either.

The standard definition of rebirth in the suttas includes the synonyms jāti sañjāti okkanti abhinibbatti. Of these:

6. jāti = usually translated “birth”, but in fact generally used in the sense of “rebirth”. See next.
7. sañjāti = rebirth in the specific sense of “conception”, as opposed to vijāti which means “parturition” i.e. “birth” in the usual sense. (Google defines birth as “the emergence of a baby or other young from the body of its mother; the start of life as a physically separate being.”)
8. okkanti = “conception” in the sense of the “descent” (too literal!) or arrival of the “spirit” (in animist thinking) or “consciousness” (in Buddhism).

In addition to these, we also have bhava and its various forms (punabbhava, punabhavabhinibbatti, etc.). This has the more general sense of “life, existence, state of rebirth”, but used loosely it often has the sense of “rebirth”, as in, say bhavanetti, “attachment to existence”, i.e. “attachment to future lives”, i.e. “attachment to being reborn”.
Then, labhati was dealt with as the conversation continued, etc.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
User avatar
DooDoot
Posts: 12032
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:06 pm

Re: I would like to clarify the Dhukka in the four noble truths

Post by DooDoot »

Coëmgenu wrote: Fri Feb 19, 2021 9:10 pm
DooDoot wrote: Fri Feb 19, 2021 8:57 pmPossibly Coëmgenu can tell us which Pali word from the suttas literally means "rebirth" ("reincarnation")? :thanks:
I think Venerable Sujato did a better job answering your question five years ago, so I am going to defer to him, as I agree with everything he said to you back then and still agree today:
Sorry but you were asked to substantiate your person view and accusations rather than rely on (the equally unsubstantiated) Sujato. I have yet read or heard anywhere that the independent Australia monk called 'Sujato' is the Buddha or a new Buddha.
Last edited by DooDoot on Fri Feb 19, 2021 9:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati
User avatar
Coëmgenu
Posts: 8150
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2016 10:55 pm
Location: Whitby, Canada

Re: I would like to clarify the Dhukka in the four noble truths

Post by Coëmgenu »

Venerable Sujato correctly addressed your concerns five years ago. He was not in the least bit "illogical" or whatever else. Ah, you've changed it to "unsubstantiated" now instead.
Last edited by Coëmgenu on Fri Feb 19, 2021 9:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
Post Reply