I would like to clarify the Dhukka in the four noble truths

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
pinit29
Posts: 28
Joined: Fri Feb 16, 2018 6:03 pm

Re: I would like to clarify the Dhukka in the four noble truths

Post by pinit29 »

DooDoot wrote: Sun Feb 14, 2021 11:36 pm
pinit29 wrote: Sun Feb 14, 2021 5:37 pm That being said, the Bhudha taught us that
1. The birth is Dhukka
2. The Aging is Dhukka
3. The death is Dhukka
4.  Unable to fulfill one's wish is Dhukka
5  Lost our loved ones (including things ) is Dhukka
6. Experienced the unpleasant is Dhukka
The above appears to have overlooked how the Buddha summarized dukkha:
saṃkhittena pañcupādānakkhandhā dukkhā

in summary, the five aggregates subject to clinging are suffering.
Its seems possibly #1 to #6 above are all types of attachment, such as thinking: "I will die" or "my dog died".




Oh yes, you are talking about rupa and nama, right?

This is getting deeper and deeper in details of Dukkha.

Well, I just replied the comments earlier about 2 types of Dukkha.
1. Dukkha that is the state or condition that cannot stay the same forever like aging or decaying.

2. The Dukkha from being able or unable to fulfilling Tanha. In short, whether you get what you want or not, it will eventually lead to Dukkha.

People will perceive these Dukkha through 5 aggregates. In short, through rupa and nama via 6 senses (ears, eyes, nose, tongue, body, and mind).
User avatar
DooDoot
Posts: 12032
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:06 pm

Re: I would like to clarify the Dhukka in the four noble truths

Post by DooDoot »

pinit29 wrote: Mon Feb 15, 2021 3:01 am
Oh yes, you are talking about rupa and nama, right?
I was talking about to attachment to the five aggregates as self (upadana). You appeared to not mention this even though this appears to be the core message of the 1st noble truth.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati
pinit29
Posts: 28
Joined: Fri Feb 16, 2018 6:03 pm

Re: I would like to clarify the Dhukka in the four noble truths

Post by pinit29 »

JohnK wrote: Mon Feb 15, 2021 1:32 am I'm not sure what misunderstanding you are trying to correct with your OP. Nevertheless, there is one thing you say that doesn't seem quite right to me.
pinit29 wrote: Sun Feb 14, 2021 5:37 pm ...If we are unable to fulfill Tanha, we will feel Dhukka...
I think tanha is already dukkha. Craving is not contentment.
Happy to hear if I have this wrong.
This is half true. The Tanha itself is not dukkha. But the need to fulfill Tanha is the beginning of the process that lead to Dukkha. For example, if you feel hungry, the hungry itself is not Dukkha, but the need to fulfill hungryness is Dukkha. This does not mean that you should not eat anything. There is a saying, Eat to stay alive. Do not stay alive just for eating.
User avatar
DooDoot
Posts: 12032
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:06 pm

Re: I would like to clarify the Dhukka in the four noble truths

Post by DooDoot »

pinit29 wrote: Mon Feb 15, 2021 4:01 am This is half true. The Tanha itself is not dukkha.
While i agree with the above, i doubt "tanha" alone is the "origin" of dukkha. The 2nd noble truth appears to say: "craving that leads to new becoming". Therefore, i think both "tanha" & "bhava" ("becoming") is required for the "origin" of dukkha. For example, AN 3.61 says:
"And what is the noble truth of the origination of stress?

"From ignorance as a requisite condition come fabrications. From fabrications as a requisite condition comes consciousness. From consciousness as a requisite condition comes name-&-form. From name-&-form as a requisite condition come the six sense media. From the six sense media as a requisite condition comes contact. From contact as a requisite condition comes feeling. From feeling as a requisite condition comes craving. From craving as a requisite condition comes clinging/sustenance. From clinging/sustenance as a requisite condition comes becoming. From becoming as a requisite condition comes birth. From birth as a requisite condition, then old age & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair come into play. Such is the origination of this entire mass of stress & suffering.

"This is called the noble truth of the origination of stress.'

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati
justindesilva
Posts: 2602
Joined: Wed Jul 27, 2016 12:38 pm

Re: I would like to clarify the Dhukka in the four noble truths

Post by justindesilva »

befriend wrote: Mon Feb 15, 2021 1:47 am Dukkha is omnipresent in everything experienced. All things are impermanent unsatisfactory and not self. When you see how everything is composed of these three characteristics your seeing reality and growing clear seeing or wisdom. When you see everything is putrid and disgusting (Dukkha) in mindfulness meditation you would not want this to be you why would you want to identify with anything that is pure disgust constantly moving rotting always right now always. Seeing Dukkha in meditation is not always fun and happy. Meditation doesn't always feel good. It's not supposed to.
Let me express " save sankara dukkha" meaning all formations are dukkha or suffering, while sankhara is detailed as Jaya sankara, back sankara , citta sankara. All these sankara arise by intentions or cetana. Hence it is cetana that is responsible for suffering. Samma sankappa or intentions void of loba, dosa, moha are samma sankappa.
User avatar
mjaviem
Posts: 2299
Joined: Wed Dec 16, 2020 5:06 pm

Re: I would like to clarify the Dhukka in the four noble truths

Post by mjaviem »

JohnK wrote: Mon Feb 15, 2021 1:32 am .. I think tanha is already dukkha. Craving is not contentment...
:goodpost:

pinit29 wrote: Mon Feb 15, 2021 4:01 am
JohnK wrote: Mon Feb 15, 2021 1:32 am I'm not sure what misunderstanding you are trying to correct with your OP. Nevertheless, there is one thing you say that doesn't seem quite right to me.
pinit29 wrote: Sun Feb 14, 2021 5:37 pm ...If we are unable to fulfill Tanha, we will feel Dhukka...
I think tanha is already dukkha. Craving is not contentment.
Happy to hear if I have this wrong.
This is half true. The Tanha itself is not dukkha. But the need to fulfill Tanha is the beginning of the process that lead to Dukkha. For example, if you feel hungry, the hungry itself is not Dukkha, but the need to fulfill hungryness is Dukkha. This does not mean that you should not eat anything. There is a saying, Eat to stay alive. Do not stay alive just for eating.
As far as I know, you cannot have dukkha without tanha so I see this entirely true. You can be hungry without suffering from it. But it's as soon as you crave for food that you experience suffering.

You can conceptually separate craving from suffering but it's fair to say that they are the same from the experience point of view. "Craving is not contentment" is clear to me so far. Discontent is suffering. This has the two halves right.
Namo Tassa Bhagavato Arahato Sammā Sambuddhassa
dharmacorps
Posts: 2298
Joined: Thu Aug 06, 2015 7:33 pm

Re: I would like to clarify the Dhukka in the four noble truths

Post by dharmacorps »

Tanha cannot be fulfilled, OP. That is the problem. There is no ultimate fulfillment, hence the problem of suffering. The entire process of suffering is there when tanha occurs, not after.
sphairos
Posts: 966
Joined: Mon Jun 21, 2010 4:37 am
Location: Munich, Germany

Re: I would like to clarify the Dhukka in the four noble truths

Post by sphairos »

"Dhukka" :thumbsup:

:rofl:
How good and wonderful are your days,
How true are your ways?
Agnikan
Posts: 70
Joined: Thu Jul 30, 2020 9:07 pm

Re: I would like to clarify the Dhukka in the four noble truths

Post by Agnikan »

And one can’t have taṇhā without avijjā.
User avatar
confusedlayman
Posts: 6231
Joined: Fri Jun 21, 2019 12:16 am
Location: Human Realm (as of now)

Re: I would like to clarify the Dhukka in the four noble truths

Post by confusedlayman »

u take birth because of desire, if no Tanha then no rebirth
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
User avatar
DooDoot
Posts: 12032
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:06 pm

Re: I would like to clarify the Dhukka in the four noble truths

Post by DooDoot »

confusedlayman wrote: Fri Feb 19, 2021 7:32 am u take birth because of desire, if no Tanha then no rebirth
what is "birth"? what is "rebirth"?

where do the four noble truths says u take birth because of desire? :shrug:

please quote it from sutta? thanks
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati
User avatar
confusedlayman
Posts: 6231
Joined: Fri Jun 21, 2019 12:16 am
Location: Human Realm (as of now)

Re: I would like to clarify the Dhukka in the four noble truths

Post by confusedlayman »

DooDoot wrote: Fri Feb 19, 2021 9:30 am
confusedlayman wrote: Fri Feb 19, 2021 7:32 am u take birth because of desire, if no Tanha then no rebirth
what is "birth"? what is "rebirth"?

where do the four noble truths says u take birth because of desire? :shrug:

please quote it from sutta? thanks
birth is getting new aggregates after loosing old aggregates..
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
User avatar
DooDoot
Posts: 12032
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:06 pm

Re: I would like to clarify the Dhukka in the four noble truths

Post by DooDoot »

confusedlayman wrote: Fri Feb 19, 2021 9:35 am birth is getting new aggregates after loosing old aggregates..
where do the four noble truths say this? :shrug: :roll:

also what is it that loses & gains new aggregates?
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati
User avatar
confusedlayman
Posts: 6231
Joined: Fri Jun 21, 2019 12:16 am
Location: Human Realm (as of now)

Re: I would like to clarify the Dhukka in the four noble truths

Post by confusedlayman »

DooDoot wrote: Fri Feb 19, 2021 9:37 am
confusedlayman wrote: Fri Feb 19, 2021 9:35 am birth is getting new aggregates after loosing old aggregates..
where do the four noble truths say this? :shrug: :roll:
in previous life u have one body, now u have different body

there is no individual to lose our gain, the phenomena rolls on
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
User avatar
DooDoot
Posts: 12032
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:06 pm

Re: I would like to clarify the Dhukka in the four noble truths

Post by DooDoot »

confusedlayman wrote: Fri Feb 19, 2021 9:39 am in previous life u have one body, now u have different body
where do the four noble truths say this? :shrug: :roll:

what is the "u" that gains & loses aggregates? :shrug: :roll:
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati
Post Reply