This is the reasons why cessation of feeling and perception is temporary nibbana with residue

[Ratnakar]

“Neutral feeling” is “adukkhaasukkha” not “uppekha”.

“Adukkhaasukkha” is felt in the fourth jhana. The one thing we know about jhana is that it gets more and more refined as you go up.

The “pleasure” of the fourth jhana cannot be defined in ordinary terms. Similarly to “neither perception nor non perception” - the term “adukkhaasukkha” describes a transcendental state of pleasure that evades description.

Similarly - Sariputta declared Nirodha Samapatti as “pleasurable because nothing is felt”. And the Buddha backed him up by saying that he defines pleasure where ever it is found.

So - similar to the “pleasure” of the fourth jhana, the “pleasure” of Nirodha Samapatti evades description.

This practice in Buddhism of saying “neither nor” is wrong and “both here and there” is wrong is simply a way of expressing something that cannot be described in regular terms (like the Buddha’s location after pari Nibbana).

In other words “adukkhaasukkha” does NOT mean “neutral”.

No, neutral feeling can be mapped to equanimity feeling

Sn48.38
In this context, the faculties of pleasure and happiness should be seen as pleasant feeling. The faculties of pain and sadness should be seen as painful feeling. The faculty of equanimity should be seen as neutral feeling.

That’s how these five faculties, depending on how they’re explained, having been five become three, and having been three become five.”

Sure. “Equanimity” is a “neutral” feeling.

“Adukkhaasukkha” is not.

“Adukkhaasukkha” is the primary attainment of the fourth jhana. I doubt (on a conceptual level) that the primary attainment of the fourth jhana is an unremarkable “neutral” feeling. As I’ve said, it goes beyond pain and pleasure.

It is similar to Nirodha Samapatti where Sariputta says the attainment is pleasurable “precisely because nothing is felt”.

I doubt “adukkhaasukkha” is “ neutral” just as I doubt “neither perception nor non perception” is something rather bland and unremarkable.

You need to interpret the use of “neither-nor” in its proper usage.

If the Buddha meant “neutral” then he’d use the Pali word for “neutral”.

Sn48.38(Thanissaro)
“With regard to this, the pleasure-faculty & happiness-faculty are to be seen as a feeling of pleasure. The pain-faculty & distress-faculty are to be seen as a feeling of pain. The equanimity-faculty is to be seen as a feeling of neither pleasure nor pain. Thus, by this exposition, the five are three; and the three, five.”

That translation is better, the neutral feeling is a bad translation it should be translated as neither pleasure nor pain feeling which can be mapped to equanimity feeling

[DooDoot]

That translation is better, the neutral feeling is a bad translation it should be translated as neither pleasure nor pain feeling which can be mapped to equanimity feeling

In relation to equanimity, the translation of neutral feeling is OK. In relation to the six sense bases in general, it is not. There are feelings of neither pleasure nor pain that give rise to confusion, such as when reading posts about using requisites from rubbish dumps. Since the Buddha taught the spiritual guidance of purity for humans, when one reads posts about using requisites from rubbish dumps on Buddhist forums, such posts are neither pleasant or painful. Instead, a strange feeling arise of 'wonderment' arises, which gives rise to confusion & self-views, such as the thought: "How could a fool ask such a question when the Buddha made the Vinaya clear?". Any thought arising in the mind like this that contains self-view has arisen from a feeling, even though the feeling may not be pleasant or painful.

[DooDoot]

In mn37 buddha said with cessation of clinging/grasping monks enter nibbana

Yes. But MN 37 is about Nibbana via destruction of craving. Destruction of Craving is the name of the sutta MN 37.

In mn38 buddha said when feeling ceases craving ceases

No. In the middle, MN 38 says when feeling with ignorance ceases; craving ceases. Thus, at the end, MN 38 says:

On seeing a form with the eye, he does not lust after it if it is pleasing; he does not dislike it if it is unpleasing. He abides with mindfulness of the body established, with an immeasurable mind, and he understands as it actually is the deliverance of mind and deliverance by wisdom wherein those evil unwholesome states cease without remainder. Having thus abandoned favouring and opposing, whatever feeling he feels, whether pleasant or painful or neither-painful-nor-pleasant, he does not delight in that feeling, welcome it, or remain holding to it. As he does not do so, delight in feelings ceases in him. With the cessation of his delight comes cessation of clinging; with the cessation of clinging, cessation of being; with the cessation of being, cessation of birth; with the cessation of birth, ageing and death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief, and despair cease. Such is the cessation of this whole mass of suffering.

https://suttacentral.net/mn38/en/bodhi

In mn148 buddha said that cessation of craving is nibbana

Maybe, but MN 148 also refers to a Nibbana with feelings, as follows:

Bhikkhus, dependent on the eye and forms, eye-consciousness arises; the meeting of the three is contact; with contact as condition there arises a feeling felt as pleasant or painful or neither-painful-nor-pleasant. When one is touched by a pleasant feeling, if one does not delight in it, welcome it, and remain holding to it, then the underlying tendency to lust does not lie within one. When one is touched by a painful feeling, if one does not sorrow, grieve and lament, does not weep beating one’s breast and become distraught, then the underlying tendency to aversion does not lie within one. When one is touched by a neither-painful-nor-pleasant feeling, if one understands as it actually is the origination, the disappearance, the gratification, the danger, and the escape in regard to that feeling, then the underlying tendency to ignorance does not lie within one. Bhikkhus, that one shall here and now make an end of suffering by abandoning the underlying tendency to lust for pleasant feeling, by abolishing the underlying tendency to aversion towards painful feeling, by extirpating the underlying tendency to ignorance in regard to neither-painful-nor-pleasant feeling, by abandoning ignorance and arousing true knowledge—this is possible.

https://suttacentral.net/mn148/en/bodhi

there is no contradiction you can gain nibbana through cessation of craving through cessation of clinging/grasping or through cessation of feeling this is just dependent origination this is the 3 way to attain nibbana and from these 3 cessation of craving is the easiest to reach nibbana you know this

No. The suttas say consciousness, feeling & perception are conjoined. They appear to not say consciousness, feeling, perception & sankhara are conjoined (as Abhidhamma does). Nibbana is a permanent state. Therefore, it appears Nibbana can never be defined as the cessation of feeling. This is impossible.

You are sounding like Bhikkhu Buddhadasa, who claimed Nibbana without residue means having no feelings.

entering cessation of feeling and perception both feeling and perception ceases so in that 5 minutes craving also ceases which is a 5 minutes nibbana experiences after that 5 minutes or when one emerge from that state feeling arises so craving arises too

I read on another forum some Sri Lankans and Norwegians think sloth & torpor (sinking mind) is cessation of feeling and perception.

[Pondera]

No, neutral feeling can be mapped to equanimity feeling

Sure. “Equanimity” is a “neutral” feeling.

“Adukkhaasukkha” is not.

“Adukkhaasukkha” is the primary attainment of the fourth jhana. I doubt (on a conceptual level) that the primary attainment of the fourth jhana is an unremarkable “neutral” feeling. As I’ve said, it goes beyond pain and pleasure.

It is similar to Nirodha Samapatti where Sariputta says the attainment is pleasurable “precisely because nothing is felt”.

I doubt “adukkhaasukkha” is “ neutral” just as I doubt “neither perception nor non perception” is something rather bland and unremarkable.

You need to interpret the use of “neither-nor” in its proper usage.

If the Buddha meant “neutral” then he’d use the Pali word for “neutral”.

Sn48.38(Thanissaro)
“With regard to this, the pleasure-faculty & happiness-faculty are to be seen as a feeling of pleasure. The pain-faculty & distress-faculty are to be seen as a feeling of pain. The equanimity-faculty is to be seen as a feeling of neither pleasure nor pain. Thus, by this exposition, the five are three; and the three, five.”

That translation is better, the neutral feeling is a bad translation it should be translated as neither pleasure nor pain feeling which can be mapped to equanimity feeling

I don’t see your objection. You’ve now resorted to “adukkhaasukkha” without defining it.

"And furthermore, with the abandoning of pleasure and stress — as with the earlier disappearance of elation and distress — he enters and remains in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity and mindfulness, neither-pleasure-nor-pain. He sits, permeating the body with a pure, bright awareness, so that there is nothing of his entire body unpervaded by pure, bright awareness.

"Just as if a man were sitting wrapped from head to foot with a white cloth so that there would be no part of his body to which the white cloth did not extend; even so, the monk sits, permeating his body with a pure, bright awareness. There is nothing of his entire body unpervaded by pure, bright awareness."

I’m saying adukkhaasukkha goes BEYOND pleasure and pain.

What are you saying?

[Ratnakar]

In mn148 buddha said that cessation of craving is nibbana

Maybe, but MN 148 also refers to a Nibbana with feelings, as follows:

Bhikkhus, dependent on the eye and forms, eye-consciousness arises; the meeting of the three is contact; with contact as condition there arises a feeling felt as pleasant or painful or neither-painful-nor-pleasant. When one is touched by a pleasant feeling, if one does not delight in it, welcome it, and remain holding to it, then the underlying tendency to lust does not lie within one. When one is touched by a painful feeling, if one does not sorrow, grieve and lament, does not weep beating one’s breast and become distraught, then the underlying tendency to aversion does not lie within one. When one is touched by a neither-painful-nor-pleasant feeling, if one understands as it actually is the origination, the disappearance, the gratification, the danger, and the escape in regard to that feeling, then the underlying tendency to ignorance does not lie within one. Bhikkhus, that one shall here and now make an end of suffering by abandoning the underlying tendency to lust for pleasant feeling, by abolishing the underlying tendency to aversion towards painful feeling, by extirpating the underlying tendency to ignorance in regard to neither-painful-nor-pleasant feeling, by abandoning ignorance and arousing true knowledge—this is possible.
https://suttacentral.net/mn148/en/bodhi

Yes I think that's nibbana with feeling or residue left, in other sutta buddha said that the 5 aggregates are suffering so even those aggregates needs to be given up in the very end in parinibbana or what you know as nibbana without residue left

there is no contradiction you can gain nibbana through cessation of craving through cessation of clinging/grasping or through cessation of feeling this is just dependent origination this is the 3 way to attain nibbana and from these 3 cessation of craving is the easiest to reach nibbana you know this

Nibbana is a permanent state[/b]. Therefore, it appears Nibbana can never be defined as the cessation of feeling. This is impossible.

We can refer to it as momentary cessation of feeling thus momentary cessation of craving the third noble truth is described as cessation of craving thus momentary cessation of suffering can be achieved by momentary cessation of craving and even though permanent cessation of suffering is the end goal using the temporary one we can taste the permanent one you don't need to taste the entire ocean to know the taste of it, a drop of ocean water is enough

I mean this neutral feeling is not pain it's not pleasure either so translating it as neither pleasure nor pain feeling won't change the meaning at all it just makes thing more clearer I think the best translation is "neutral feeling without pain or pleasure"

[Ratnakar]

I don’t see your objection. You’ve now resorted to “adukkhaasukkha” without defining it.

"And furthermore, with the abandoning of pleasure and stress — as with the earlier disappearance of elation and distress — he enters and remains in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity and mindfulness, neither-pleasure-nor-pain. He sits, permeating the body with a pure, bright awareness, so that there is nothing of his entire body unpervaded by pure, bright awareness.

"Just as if a man were sitting wrapped from head to foot with a white cloth so that there would be no part of his body to which the white cloth did not extend; even so, the monk sits, permeating his body with a pure, bright awareness. There is nothing of his entire body unpervaded by pure, bright awareness."

I’m saying adukkhaasukkha goes BEYOND pleasure and pain.

What are you saying?

Yes it goes beyond fourth jhana even, you still feel this neither pain nor pleasure feeling even in formless realms up to neither perception nor non perception dimension while in cessation of feeling and perception attainment that neither pain nor pleasure feeling is given up too, now this cessation attainment is literally what goes beyond the neither pleasure nor pain feeling, it goes beyond all feelings

[Ceisiwr]

…

Can you edit your post so that you don’t quote a whole chunk of text from previous posts? It makes for bad reading for others to have to scroll through it all. Thank you.

[Ratnakar]

…

Can you edit your post so that you don’t quote a whole chunk of text from previous posts? It makes for bad reading for others to have to scroll through it all. Thank you.

Done

[Pondera]

I don’t see your objection. You’ve now resorted to “adukkhaasukkha” without defining it.

"And furthermore, with the abandoning of pleasure and stress — as with the earlier disappearance of elation and distress — he enters and remains in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity and mindfulness, neither-pleasure-nor-pain. He sits, permeating the body with a pure, bright awareness, so that there is nothing of his entire body unpervaded by pure, bright awareness.

"Just as if a man were sitting wrapped from head to foot with a white cloth so that there would be no part of his body to which the white cloth did not extend; even so, the monk sits, permeating his body with a pure, bright awareness. There is nothing of his entire body unpervaded by pure, bright awareness."

I’m saying adukkhaasukkha goes BEYOND pleasure and pain.

What are you saying?

Yes it goes beyond fourth jhana even, you still feel this neither pain nor pleasure feeling even in formless realms up to neither perception nor non perception dimension while in cessation of feeling and perception attainment that neither pain nor pleasure feeling is given up too, now this cessation attainment is literally what goes beyond the neither pleasure nor pain feeling, it goes beyond all feelings

Well good we agree (so it seems).

[Pondera]

I don’t see your objection. You’ve now resorted to “adukkhaasukkha” without defining it.

"And furthermore, with the abandoning of pleasure and stress — as with the earlier disappearance of elation and distress — he enters and remains in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity and mindfulness, neither-pleasure-nor-pain. He sits, permeating the body with a pure, bright awareness, so that there is nothing of his entire body unpervaded by pure, bright awareness.

"Just as if a man were sitting wrapped from head to foot with a white cloth so that there would be no part of his body to which the white cloth did not extend; even so, the monk sits, permeating his body with a pure, bright awareness. There is nothing of his entire body unpervaded by pure, bright awareness."

I’m saying adukkhaasukkha goes BEYOND pleasure and pain.

What are you saying?

Yes it goes beyond fourth jhana even, you still feel this neither pain nor pleasure feeling even in formless realms up to neither perception nor non perception dimension while in cessation of feeling and perception attainment that neither pain nor pleasure feeling is given up too, now this cessation attainment is literally what goes beyond the neither pleasure nor pain feeling, it goes beyond all feelings

The property of the cessation of feeling & perception is to be reached as a cessation attainment."[3]

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

[DooDoot]

buddha said that the 5 aggregates are suffering

Buddha appeared to never say 5 aggregates are "suffering"; just as Buddha never appeared to never say there are "suffering feelings" ("dukkha vedana"). The Buddha did not teach in the English language. Sujato, Bodhi, Thanissaro, whoever, at not the Buddha. The Buddha appears to say attachment (upadana) to the aggregates is suffering. The word "dukkha" does not always mean "suffering".

We can refer to it as momentary cessation of feeling thus momentary cessation of craving the third noble truth is described as cessation of craving

third noble truth is described as cessation of craving and not cessation of feeling

thus momentary cessation of suffering can be achieved by momentary cessation of craving and even though permanent cessation of suffering is the end goal using the temporary one we can taste the permanent one you don't need to taste the entire ocean to know the taste of it, a drop of ocean water is enough

No. The above sounds wrong because anyone that has actually tasted Nibbana knows it Nibbana is the cessation of craving & attachment and not the cessation of feeling. For example, a mind that has entered jhana and continuously experiences pleasant feelings for many hours knows it is the non-attachment to jhana that is the deathless element.

[Ratnakar]

We can refer to it as momentary cessation of feeling thus momentary cessation of craving the third noble truth is described as cessation of craving

third noble truth is described as cessation of craving and not cessation of feeling

The Same path that bring cessation of feeling will bring cessation of craving

Mn9
Feeling ceases when contact ceases. The practice that leads to the cessation of feeling is simply this noble eightfold path

Furthermore craving is conditioned by feeling so cessation of feeling brings cessation of craving

Mn38
When feeling ceases, craving ceases.

Sn12.12
Feeling is a condition for craving

Dn15
When there’s no feeling at all, with the cessation of feeling, would craving still be found?”

“No, sir.”

“That’s why this is the cause, source, origin, and condition of craving, namely feeling.

No. The above sounds wrong because anyone that has actually tasted Nibbana knows it Nibbana is the cessation of craving & attachment and not the cessation of feeling.

Cessation of feeling too can be used directly to end suffering

Snp3.12
Whatever suffering arises, all is caused by feeling’, this is one observation. ‘With the complete ending of all feeling there is no arising of suffering’, this is a second observation

[DooDoot]

Cessation of feeling too can be used directly to end suffering

The above idea is unrelated to Buddha-Dhamma. When Gotama practised with his 1st two teachers, this is what they were seeking, namely, the maximum minimization of consciousness experience.

The SPECIAL discovery & teaching of Buddha was Nibbana with feeling because most non-attainers image Nibbana is without feeling.

Anyway, as i previously said, those hoping for non-feeling are non-attainers of jhana.

[Ratnakar]

Cessation of feeling too can be used directly to end suffering

The above idea is unrelated to Buddha-Dhamma. When Gotama practised with his 1st two teachers, this is what they were seeking, namely, the maximum minimization of consciousness experience.

The SPECIAL discovery & teaching of Buddha was Nibbana with feeling because most non-attainers image Nibbana is without feeling.

Anyway, as i previously said, those hoping for non-feeling are non-attainers of jhana.

Of course the easiest way is by abolishing craving, and in the 12 dependent origination factors if just one of them ceases like ignorance or others then the other factors will cease and won't arise

[DooDoot]

Of course the easiest way is by abolishing craving, and in the 12 dependent origination factors if just one of them ceases like ignorance or others then the other factors will cease and won't arise

You are craving for the unattainable. Nibbana with feeling is the best that can be attained.