This is the reasons why cessation of feeling and perception is temporary nibbana with residue

[Ratnakar]

Ar1.Buddha said that there are 3 feelings dukkha(pain),sukkha(happiness) and uppekha(equanimity/neutral feeling)

Ar2. Buddha said that cessation of these 3 feelings is cessation of 3 craving namely kama tanha(craving for happiness),bhava tanha(craving for equanimity or being) and vibhava tanha(craving for pain/annihilation)

Ar3. Buddha said you can only experience one feeling at a time for example you can't experience both pain and pleasure at once

Ar4a. Buddha said cessation of the first feeling (dukkha) is achieved in third jhana and with the cessation of this first feeling the third craving(vibhava tanha) also ceases

Ar4b buddha said cessation of the second feeling(sukkha) is achieved in fourth jhana and with the cessation of this feeling the first craving(kama tanha) also ceases which makes one a stream entry due to the craving of sensuality fetter being destroyed

Ar4c buddha said cessation of third feeling (equanimity/neutral feeling) complete cessation of all feelings and achieved in cessation of feeling and perception and with this Will annihilate the second craving (craving for equanimity) which refers to number ar2 in this case all cravings has cease and the fruit of arahatship is achieved due to the cessation of 2 fetters which are craving for form and craving for formless

But this is not a permanent nibbana this is just a taste of nibbana which is cessation of all 3 feelings and 3 cravings

[Pondera]

“Neutral feeling” is “adukkhaasukkha” not “uppekha”.

“Adukkhaasukkha” is felt in the fourth jhana. The one thing we know about jhana is that it gets more and more refined as you go up.

The “pleasure” of the fourth jhana cannot be defined in ordinary terms. Similarly to “neither perception nor non perception” - the term “adukkhaasukkha” describes a transcendental state of pleasure that evades description.

Similarly - Sariputta declared Nirodha Samapatti as “pleasurable because nothing is felt”. And the Buddha backed him up by saying that he defines pleasure where ever it is found.

So - similar to the “pleasure” of the fourth jhana, the “pleasure” of Nirodha Samapatti evades description.

This practice in Buddhism of saying “neither nor” is wrong and “both here and there” is wrong is simply a way of expressing something that cannot be described in regular terms (like the Buddha’s location after pari Nibbana).

In other words “adukkhaasukkha” does NOT mean “neutral”.

[Ratnakar]

The “pleasure” of the fourth jhana cannot be defined in ordinary terms.

Buddha said neutral feeling is pleasure when one is aware of it but pain if one is not aware of it there is still suffering in neutral feeling you can still experience neutral feeling even without jhana the difference is in fourth jhana you are aware completely with this kind of feeling thus making it a pleasure instead of a pain

Neither perception nor non perception is beyond description

The description is there it's non perception but a perception at the same time in some sutta buddha said of dimension of neither perception nor non perception as perception of dimension of neither perception non nor perception but in cessation of perception and feeling buddha doesn't attach the word perception before it like perception of cessation of perception and feeling because there is no perception there is not even subtle perception like perception of dimension of neither perception nor non perception exists in cessation of perception and feeling

When buddha said neither nor that thing can't be described at all

that's quite incorrect if that is the case buddha will said yes when he is asked whether neither he doesn't exists nor he exist the fact that the answer is no and that's because he achieves cessation not neither perception nor non perception if he achieves only neither perception nor non perception he would answer yes to that question but the stage that he achieves is beyond even the subtlest perception

[Pondera]

Some punctuation might help

[DooDoot]

Ar1.Buddha said that there are 3 feelings dukkha(pain),sukkha(happiness) and uppekha(equanimity/neutral feeling)

some suttas refer to 5 feelings

Ar2. Buddha said that cessation of these 3 feelings is cessation of 3 craving namely kama tanha(craving for happiness),bhava tanha(craving for equanimity or being) and vibhava tanha(craving for pain/annihilation)

No. Iti 44 says Arahants experience feelings but not craving.

Ar3. Buddha said you can only experience one feeling at a time for example you can't experience both pain and pleasure at once

Where did the Buddha say it? For example, sometimes in my massage therapy, i feel pleasure when pain is moving.

Ar4a. Buddha said cessation of the first feeling (dukkha) is achieved in third jhana and with the cessation of this first feeling the third craving(vibhava tanha) also ceases

Where?

Ar4b buddha said cessation of the second feeling(sukkha) is achieved in fourth jhana and with the cessation of this feeling the first craving(kama tanha) also ceases which makes one a stream entry due to the craving of sensuality fetter being destroyed

The suttas say the stream-enterer is not fully developed concentration.

Ar4c buddha said cessation of third feeling (equanimity/neutral feeling) complete cessation of all feelings and achieved in cessation of feeling and perception and with this Will annihilate the second craving (craving for equanimity) which refers to number

There is one sutta that says defilement can still arise after emerging from the above cessation.

ar2 in this case all cravings has cease and the fruit of arahatship is achieved due to the cessation of 2 fetters which are craving for form and craving for formless

There is one sutta that says defilement can still arise after emerging from the above cessation; therefore only non-returner.

But this is not a permanent nibbana this is just a taste of nibbana which is cessation of all 3 feelings and 3 cravings

The above is wrong. Iti 44 and many other suttas (MN 37, MN 38, MN 148, etc) says Arahants experiences feelings but not craving.

[SarathW]

Ar3. Buddha said you can only experience one feeling at a time for example you can't experience both pain and pleasure at once

It appears you get this wrong. Accoding to Chulavedalla Sutta perception and feelings are conjoined not disjoint.
However, according to Abhidhamma you can experience only one sense at a time. For instance, when you see, you don't hear even though it appears that we see and hear the same time.

[DooDoot]

Abhidhamma

It appears you get this wrong. Accoding to Chulavedalla Sutta perception and feelings are conjoined not disjoint.

You mean Mahavedalla Sutta. Regardless, how is perception related to the topic?

[SteRo]

"Now from the remainderless fading & cessation of that very ignorance comes the cessation of fabrications. From the cessation of fabrications comes the cessation of consciousness. From the cessation of consciousness comes the cessation of name-&-form. From the cessation of name-&-form comes the cessation of the six sense media. From the cessation of the six sense media comes the cessation of contact. From the cessation of contact comes the cessation of feeling. From the cessation of feeling comes the cessation of craving. From the cessation of craving comes the cessation of clinging/sustenance. From the cessation of clinging/sustenance comes the cessation of becoming. From the cessation of becoming comes the cessation of birth. From the cessation of birth, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair all cease. Such is the cessation of this entire mass of stress & suffering."

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

This "cessation of this entire mass of stress & suffering" often is referred to as 'nibbana' [as subjective aspect]. The dependent cessation of course includes 'cessation of feeling and perception' but 'cessation of feeling and perception' outside of the context of dependent cessation can neither be equated with 'nibbana' [as subjective aspect] nor with 'nibbana' [as objective aspect]. Why? Because as to 'nibbana' [as subjective aspect]: 'cessation of ignorance' is a prerequisite but 'cessation of feeling and perception' outside of the context of dependent cessation does not necessarily include 'cessation of ignorance'. As to 'nibbana' [as objective aspect]: 'cessation of feeling and perception' is conditioned but 'nibbana' [as objective aspect] is unconditioned.
So 'cessation of feeling and perception' cannot be equated with 'nibbana' at all, and since there is no 'temporary nibbana with residue' aside from 'nibbana' [as subjective aspect] it cannot be equated with 'temporary nibbana with residue' either.

This however is a statement different from the title of this thread:

this is just a taste of nibbana

"a taste of nibbana" might refer to what Vism calls "glimpse of nibbana" and thus might refer to insight knowledge based on "seeing" (metaphor) 'nibbana' [as objective aspect]. For this "seeing" 'cessation of feeling and perception' might be a prerequisite but it isn't necessarily a sufficient condition.

[Ratnakar]

some suttas refer to 5 feelings

Yes there is bhante in sn 36.22 those are pleasure(sukkha), pain(dukkha), happiness(somanassa), sadness(somanassa), and equanimity (uppekha) and their cessation is explicitly mentioned in sutta pain(dukkha) ceases in first jhana , sadness ceases in second jhana, pleasure (sukkha) ceases in third jhana happiness (somanassa) ceases in fourth jhana while equanimity (upekkha) ceases in cessation of perception and feeling so cessation of feeling is really the cessation of all feelings

No. Iti 44 says Arahants experience feelings but not craving.

3 feelings directly connected to 3 defilements when you abandon pleasant feeling (sukkha )you abandon defilement of sensuality when you abandon pain(dukkha) you abandon aversion and when you abandon neutral feeling (addukhamasukha) you abandon ignorance

Ending of this 3 defilements is nibbana

Where did the Buddha say it? For example, sometimes in my massage therapy, i feel pleasure when pain is moving.

Mn 74

There are these three feelings: pleasant, painful, and neutral. At a time when you feel a pleasant feeling, you don’t feel a painful or neutral feeling; you only feel a pleasant feeling. At a time when you feel a painful feeling, you don’t feel a pleasant or neutral feeling; you only feel a painful feeling. At a time when you feel a neutral feeling, you don’t feel a pleasant or painful feeling; you only feel a neutral feeling.

Where?

Sn 48.40

While a mendicant is meditating—diligent, keen, and resolute—the faculty of pain(dukkha) arises. They understand: ‘The faculty of pain has arisen in me. And that has a foundation, a source, a condition, and a reason. It’s not possible for the faculty of pain to arise without a foundation, a source, a condition, or a reason.’ They understand the faculty of pain, its origin, its cessation, and where that faculty of pain that’s arisen ceases without anything left over. And where does that faculty of pain that’s arisen cease without anything left over? It’s when a mendicant, quite secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unskillful qualities, enters and remains in the first absorption, which has the rapture and bliss born of seclusion, while placing the mind and keeping it connected. That’s where the faculty of pain that’s arisen ceases without anything left over. They’re called a mendicant who understands the cessation of the faculty of pain, and who applies their mind to that end.

The suttas say the stream-enterer is not fully developed concentration.

Please give the relevant quote here bhante like what I did with my sutta references so people can learn dhamma easily and everything can be clear to everyone

There is one sutta that says defilement can still arise after emerging from the above cessation

.

In an 5.166 sutta buddha don't give a guarantee that when you achieve cessation of perception and feeling you will become non returner instead the guarantee buddha gives is that you won't reborn in realms below the mind made gods realms so you won't born in hell,animal realm or even human

Reverends, take a mendicant who is accomplished in ethics, immersion, and wisdom. They might enter into and emerge from the cessation of perception and feeling. That is possible. If they don’t reach enlightenment in this very life, then, surpassing the company of gods that consume solid food, they’re reborn in a certain host of mind-made gods. There they might enter into and emerge from the cessation of perception and feeling. That is possible.”

Notice the first "might" word means it's possible that you don't attain cessation of perception and feeling but buddha guarantee even if you don't attain it you won't go to lowers realm

Notice the second "might" word here means buddha doesn't guarantee you will achieve cessation of perception and feeling even in the mind made gods realms but even if you fail you will still reborn there so it's not non return but multiple returns ,as long as you don't achieve cessation of perception and feeling you will keep reborning in mind made gods realm multiple times until you finally achieve cessation of perception and feeling

There is one sutta that says defilement can still arise after emerging from the above cessation; therefore only non-returner.

I have answered this

]The above is wrong. Iti 44 and many other suttas (MN 37, MN 38, MN 148, etc) says Arahants experiences feelings but not craving.

In mn37 buddha said with cessation of clinging/grasping monks enter nibbana
In mn38 buddha said when feeling ceases craving ceases
In mn148 buddha said that cessation of craving is nibbana and I have already covered the iti 44 so there is no contradiction you can gain nibbana through cessation of craving through cessation of clinging/grasping or through cessation of feeling this is just dependent origination this is the 3 way to attain nibbana and from these 3 cessation of craving is the easiest to reach nibbana you know this

Just because one attains cessation of feeling doesn't mean he would achieve nibbana but during entering cessation of feeling and perception both feeling and perception ceases so in that 5 minutes craving also ceases which is a 5 minutes nibbana experiences after that 5 minutes or when one emerge from that state feeling arises so craving arises too

[Ratnakar]

but 'cessation of feeling and perception' outside of the context of dependent cessation does not necessarily include 'cessation of ignorance'. As to 'nibbana' [as objective aspect]:

cessation of feeling is cessation of ignorance the 3 feelings is directly connected to 3 defilements namely greed(rago) ,hate(doso) and delusion(moho) when pain feeling(dukkha) cease hate(doso) cease when pleasant feeling(sukkha) cease greed(rago) cease when neutral feeling(adukkhamasukha) cease ignorance(mojo) cease thus cessation of feeling is the ending of defilements

Cessation of feeling is cessation of craving
3 feelings is directly connected to 3 cravings which are craving for sensuality (kama tanha) ,craving for becoming (bhava tanha) and craving for annihilation (vibhava tanha) when pain feeling (dukkha) cease craving for annihilation(vibhava tanha) cease when pleasant feeling (sukkha) cease craving for sensuality (kama tanha) cease when neutral feeling (adukkhamasukha) cease craving for becoming (bhava tanha) cease thus cessation of feeling is cessation of craving

Cessation of feeling is cessation of suffering, the 3 feelings is directly connected to 3 suffering namely suffering due to pain (dukkhadukkhata), suffering due to formation(sankharadukkhata) and suffering due to change(viparinamadukkhata) when pain feeling (dukkha) cease suffering due to pain(dukkhadukkhata) cease when pleasant feeling (sukkha) cease the suffering due to change (viparinamadukkhata) cease when neutral feeling cease the suffering due to formation (sankharadukkhata) cease thus cessation of feeling is cessation of suffering




'

cessation of feeling and perception' is conditioned but 'nibbana' [as objective aspect] is unconditioned.

this is not quite correct cessation of feeling and perception is unconditioned for example you can't intentionally enter and remain in cessation of perception and feeling buddha said you even don't know that you are entering cessation of perception and feeling and you even don't know that you are emerging in it this is different from jhana and formless attainment where you know how you enter and emerge from it you know what you need to do to enter it
By unconditioned means cessation of perception and feeling is not something you intentionally create it's not something your mind help to create in fact there is no mind at all there is no consciousness at all in that state, buddha said that he can only remain in that state for 7 days not longer

So 'cessation of feeling and perception' cannot be equated with 'nibbana' at all, and since there is no 'temporary nibbana with residue' aside from 'nibbana' [as subjective aspect] it cannot be equated with 'temporary nibbana with residue' either.

Buddha said that nibbana is a dimension it's the state that's unreachable by mind in cessation of perception and feeling even the mind itself cease the mind don't know what kind of state cessation of perception and feeling is, how to enter it and how to emerge from it

[confusedlayman]

dukka ends in 1st jhana

[Ratnakar]

. It appears you get this wrong. Accoding to Chulavedalla Sutta perception and feelings are conjoined not disjoint.

By cessation of perception buddha means there is no perception of form there is no even perception of space nor perception of nothingness or even perception of neither perception nor non perception there, that's the ultimate state, the ultimate sanctuary, the ultimate goal

There is no real difference between feeling and perception according mn18

Eye onsciousness arises dependent on the eye and sights. The meeting of the three is contact. Contact is a condition for feeling. What you feel, you perceive. What you perceive, you think about. What you think about, you proliferate. What you proliferate about is the source from which a person is beset by concepts of identity that emerge from the proliferation of perceptions. This occurs with respect to sights known by the eye in the past, future, and present

[Ratnakar]

dukka ends in 1st jhana

True

[Ceisiwr]

dukka ends in 1st jhana

If that were true then Mahavira was a Buddha.

[confusedlayman]

dukka ends in 1st jhana

If that were true then Mahavira was a Buddha.

but its temporary ...

mahavira dont do jhana.. he does painful practice