This is the reasons why cessation of feeling and perception is temporary nibbana with residue

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Ratnakar
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Re: This is the reasons why cessation of feeling and perception is temporary nibbana with residue

Post by Ratnakar »

pegembara wrote: Mon Mar 08, 2021 4:35 am
Ratnakar wrote: Mon Mar 08, 2021 3:42 am
pegembara wrote: Mon Mar 08, 2021 2:06 am How so?
Cessation of perception and feeling means what it says.

Nibbana with residue also means what it says.

“What, bhikkhus, is the Nibbāna-element with residue left? Here a bhikkhu is an arahant, one whose taints are destroyed, the holy life fulfilled, who has done what had to be done, laid down the burden, attained the goal, destroyed the fetters of being, completely released through final knowledge. However, his five sense faculties remain unimpaired, by which he still experiences what is agreeable and disagreeable and feels pleasure and pain. It is the extinction of attachment, hate, and delusion in him that is called the Nibbāna-element with residue left.
If that's the case Cessation of perception and feeling is clearly nibbana without residue

Nibbana is simply cessation of craving buddha said when feeling cease craving also cease
That when feeling(and contact) ceases, craving also ceases is true.
But for the arahant, the feeling is still present - only craving(liking or disliking) ceases.
Buddha said that For arahat feeling do arise but they can't penetrate the mind due to non grasping/craving

For one who enter cessation of perception and feeling feeling cease and when they emerge from that attainment feeling arise again buddha said he can only enter nibbana without residue for only 7 days because the body can't survive without feeling if it's longer than 7 days
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Re: This is the reasons why cessation of feeling and perception is temporary nibbana with residue

Post by SteRo »

confusedlayman wrote: Sun Mar 07, 2021 8:43 pm
SteRo wrote: Sun Mar 07, 2021 5:27 pm
confusedlayman wrote: Sun Mar 07, 2021 5:17 pm what is subjective nibbana and object nibbana? my English bad
'Subjective' refers to the aggregates as subject affected through "seeing" objective nibbana and 'objective' refers to nibbana as the ultimate reality called 'the unconditioned, the deathless'.
How r aggregates affected in subjective ?
--> sotapanna aggregates ---> ... ---> arahant aggregates
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pegembara
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Re: This is the reasons why cessation of feeling and perception is temporary nibbana with residue

Post by pegembara »

Ratnakar wrote: Mon Mar 08, 2021 5:28 am
Buddha said that For arahat feeling do arise but they can't penetrate the mind due to non grasping/craving

For one who enter cessation of perception and feeling feeling cease and when they emerge from that attainment feeling arise again buddha said he can only enter nibbana without residue for only 7 days because the body can't survive without feeling if it's longer than 7 days
So what happened to the arahants when their perception and feeling ceased permanently?

Nibbana without residue(parinibbana) is not the cessation of perception and feeling(sanna vedaita nirodha) which is temporary. I would agree that cessation of perception and feeling is temporary "nibbana without residue".
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Ratnakar
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Re: This is the reasons why cessation of feeling and perception is temporary nibbana with residue

Post by Ratnakar »

pegembara wrote: Mon Mar 08, 2021 6:55 am
Ratnakar wrote: Mon Mar 08, 2021 5:28 am
Buddha said that For arahat feeling do arise but they can't penetrate the mind due to non grasping/craving

For one who enter cessation of perception and feeling feeling cease and when they emerge from that attainment feeling arise again buddha said he can only enter nibbana without residue for only 7 days because the body can't survive without feeling if it's longer than 7 days
So what happened to the arahants when their perception and feeling ceased permanently?
Nothing would happen buddha said the 5 aggregates is suffering and should be discarded

both perception and feeling are aggregates ,5 aggregates here namely body(rupa), feeling(vedana), perception(sanna), mental intention(sankhara), consciousness(vinnana)

Nibbana without residue(parinibbana) is not the cessation of perception and feeling(sanna vedaita nirodha) which is temporary. I would agree that cessation of perception and feeling is temporary "nibbana without residue".
Yes that's it it's only temporary
But the buddha said in order to gain cessation of feeling you need to develop the noble 8 fold path
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Re: This is the reasons why cessation of feeling and perception is temporary nibbana with residue

Post by confusedlayman »

SteRo wrote: Mon Mar 08, 2021 6:49 am
confusedlayman wrote: Sun Mar 07, 2021 8:43 pm
SteRo wrote: Sun Mar 07, 2021 5:27 pm

'Subjective' refers to the aggregates as subject affected through "seeing" objective nibbana and 'objective' refers to nibbana as the ultimate reality called 'the unconditioned, the deathless'.
How r aggregates affected in subjective ?
--> sotapanna aggregates ---> ... ---> arahant aggregates
do they look different?
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
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Re: This is the reasons why cessation of feeling and perception is temporary nibbana with residue

Post by mjaviem »

pegembara wrote: Mon Mar 08, 2021 4:35 am ...
But for the arahant, the feeling is still present - only craving(liking or disliking) ceases.
Yes, and it makes sense even without a reference to a sutta. How could an arahant (with body and senses still alive) who knows so much about reality and minds not know about the aggregates closer to him? I think he knows his body is in pain or that a colorful landscape lays downhill in front of him but he sees it as just pain not affecting his peace of mind and he sees the landscape as just a view not taking joy from it.
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Ratnakar
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Re: This is the reasons why cessation of feeling and perception is temporary nibbana with residue

Post by Ratnakar »

mjaviem wrote: Mon Mar 08, 2021 1:24 pm
pegembara wrote: Mon Mar 08, 2021 4:35 am ...
But for the arahant, the feeling is still present - only craving(liking or disliking) ceases.
Yes, and it makes sense even without a reference to a sutta. How could an arahant (with body and senses still alive) who knows so much about reality and minds not know about the aggregates closer to him? I think he knows his body is in pain or that a colorful landscape lays downhill in front of him but he sees it as just pain not affecting his peace of mind and he sees the landscape as just a view not taking joy from it.

In sutta the buddha said that The arahant doesn't experience nibbana each second they can only access it for only 7 consecutive days because no one can live without feeling for longer than 7 days
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Re: This is the reasons why cessation of feeling and perception is temporary nibbana with residue

Post by mjaviem »

Ratnakar wrote: Fri Mar 19, 2021 11:48 am
mjaviem wrote: Mon Mar 08, 2021 1:24 pm
pegembara wrote: Mon Mar 08, 2021 4:35 am ...
But for the arahant, the feeling is still present - only craving(liking or disliking) ceases.
Yes, and it makes sense even without a reference to a sutta. How could an arahant (with body and senses still alive) who knows so much about reality and minds not know about the aggregates closer to him? I think he knows his body is in pain or that a colorful landscape lays downhill in front of him but he sees it as just pain not affecting his peace of mind and he sees the landscape as just a view not taking joy from it.

In sutta the buddha said that The arahant doesn't experience nibbana each second they can only access it for only 7 consecutive days because no one can live without feeling for longer than 7 days
Sorry, I'm a beginner and don't know what sutta you are referring to.

So, do you mean that nibbana is some kind of a trance an arahant goes into and out of it? I'm not sure it's like this. I think nibbana is a realization, a knowing, and it can't be lost. Once you know, you don't go backwards. And because you are still alive there are feelings but you also know, so nothing can shake you. Feelings are there, is part of acceptance, I believe an arahant accepts he's not in control he just stopped clinging to them. His not denying them nor blocking them while in a trance, he doesn't want to get rid of feelings, he doesn't want anything, he simply knows things as they are.
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Ratnakar
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Re: This is the reasons why cessation of feeling and perception is temporary nibbana with residue

Post by Ratnakar »

mjaviem wrote: Fri Mar 19, 2021 4:56 pm
Ratnakar wrote: Fri Mar 19, 2021 11:48 am
mjaviem wrote: Mon Mar 08, 2021 1:24 pm
Yes, and it makes sense even without a reference to a sutta. How could an arahant (with body and senses still alive) who knows so much about reality and minds not know about the aggregates closer to him? I think he knows his body is in pain or that a colorful landscape lays downhill in front of him but he sees it as just pain not affecting his peace of mind and he sees the landscape as just a view not taking joy from it.

In sutta the buddha said that The arahant doesn't experience nibbana each second they can only access it for only 7 consecutive days because no one can live without feeling for longer than 7 days
Sorry, I'm a beginner and don't know what sutta you are referring to.

So, do you mean that nibbana is some kind of a trance an arahant goes into and out of it? I'm not sure it's like this. I think nibbana is a realization, a knowing, and it can't be lost. Once you know, you don't go backwards. And because you are still alive there are feelings but you also know, so nothing can shake you. Feelings are there, is part of acceptance, I believe an arahant accepts he's not in control he just stopped clinging to them. His not denying them nor blocking them while in a trance, he doesn't want to get rid of feelings, he doesn't want anything, he simply knows things as they are.
Mn14
But I am capable of experiencing perfect happiness for one day and night without moving my body or speaking. I am capable of experiencing perfect happiness for two days … three days … four days … five days … six days … seven days. What do you think, reverends? This being so, who lives in greater pleasure, King Bimbisāra or I?’
Mn59
There is another pleasure that is finer than that. And what is that pleasure? It’s when a mendicant, going totally beyond the dimension of nothingness, enters and remains in the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception. This is a pleasure that is finer than that.

There are those who would say that this is the highest pleasure and happiness that sentient beings experience. But I don’t grant them that. Why is that? Because there is another pleasure that is finer than that. And what is that pleasure? It’s when a mendicant, going totally beyond the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception, enters and remains in the cessation of perception and feeling. This is a pleasure that is finer than that.
54.12
For those mendicants who are trainees—who haven’t achieved their heart’s desire, but live aspiring for the supreme sanctuary—the development and cultivation of immersion due to mindfulness of breathing leads to the ending of defilements.

For those mendicants who are perfected—who have ended the defilements, completed the spiritual journey, done what had to be done, laid down the burden, achieved their own goal, utterly ended the fetters of rebirth, and are rightly freed through enlightenment—the development and cultivation of immersion due to mindfulness of breathing leads to blissful meditation in the present life, and to mindfulness and awareness
Sn54.8
Now, a mendicant might wish: Going totally beyond the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception, may I enter and remain in the cessation of perception and feeling.’ So let them closely focus on this immersion due to mindfulness of breathing.
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mjaviem
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Re: This is the reasons why cessation of feeling and perception is temporary nibbana with residue

Post by mjaviem »

Ratnakar wrote: Sat Mar 20, 2021 2:48 am
Mn14
But I am capable of experiencing perfect happiness for one day and night without moving my body or speaking. I am capable of experiencing perfect happiness for two days … three days … four days … five days … six days … seven days. What do you think, reverends? This being so, who lives in greater pleasure, King Bimbisāra or I?’
Mn59
There is another pleasure that is finer than that. And what is that pleasure? It’s when a mendicant, going totally beyond the dimension of nothingness, enters and remains in the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception. This is a pleasure that is finer than that.

There are those who would say that this is the highest pleasure and happiness that sentient beings experience. But I don’t grant them that. Why is that? Because there is another pleasure that is finer than that. And what is that pleasure? It’s when a mendicant, going totally beyond the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception, enters and remains in the cessation of perception and feeling. This is a pleasure that is finer than that.
54.12
For those mendicants who are trainees—who haven’t achieved their heart’s desire, but live aspiring for the supreme sanctuary—the development and cultivation of immersion due to mindfulness of breathing leads to the ending of defilements.

For those mendicants who are perfected—who have ended the defilements, completed the spiritual journey, done what had to be done, laid down the burden, achieved their own goal, utterly ended the fetters of rebirth, and are rightly freed through enlightenment—the development and cultivation of immersion due to mindfulness of breathing leads to blissful meditation in the present life, and to mindfulness and awareness
Sn54.8
Now, a mendicant might wish: Going totally beyond the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception, may I enter and remain in the cessation of perception and feeling.’ So let them closely focus on this immersion due to mindfulness of breathing.
I think your quotes are about samadhi and not about abiding in nibbana. But I won't argue, I'm just starting with the suttas.
Namo Tassa Bhagavato Arahato Sammā Sambuddhassa
2600htz
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Re: This is the reasons why cessation of feeling and perception is temporary nibbana with residue

Post by 2600htz »

8-) Hi:

Hmm its in great part just a talk on semantics, but i dont get why calling nibbana without residue a 7 days max. attainment.

I mean nibbana is "extinguishing". But in buddhism is related to letting go.

Example: If someone gives you general anesthesia you will be out. I mean no consciousness, no feeling, no perception, etc. Thats some kind of extinguishing.

Yet most people would not call it "nibbana with residue or nibbana without residue".

The biggest difference is that buddhist cessation of perception and feeling is born by giving up passions, greed, cravings, etc.

In cessation of perception and feeling there is no letting go. There was prior letting go to enter that state, and in the case of new attainments there will be a future letting go when coming out of that state (destroying taints by seeing with wisdom).

So its passion, greed, ignorance, delusion what when extinguished should we called "nibbana". Not perception or feeling.

Regards.
Ratnakar
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Re: This is the reasons why cessation of feeling and perception is temporary nibbana with residue

Post by Ratnakar »

2600htz wrote: Sat Mar 20, 2021 5:56 pm 8-) Hi:

Hmm its in great part just a talk on semantics, but i dont get why calling nibbana without residue a 7 days max. attainment.

I mean nibbana is "extinguishing". But in buddhism is related to letting go.

Example: If someone gives you general anesthesia you will be out. I mean no consciousness, no feeling, no perception, etc. Thats some kind of extinguishing.

Yet most people would not call it "nibbana with residue or nibbana without residue".

The biggest difference is that buddhist cessation of perception and feeling is born by giving up passions, greed, cravings, etc.

In cessation of perception and feeling there is no letting go. There was prior letting go to enter that state, and in the case of new attainments there will be a future letting go when coming out of that state (destroying taints by seeing with wisdom).

So its passion, greed, ignorance, delusion what when extinguished should we called "nibbana". Not perception or feeling.

Regards.
You are right about letting go

Cessation of suffering is nibbana
Cessation of craving is nibbana because when craving cease suffering cease
Cessation of feeling is nibbana because when feeling cease craving cease

So to say cessation attainment is nibbana is right too but only when you enter that attainment, once you emerge from that attainment you meet wisdom so even if feeling arises craving doesn't arise, you break the cycle of dependent origination

Atleast that's how I understand it, I may be wrong hence why I posted this post
Ratnakar
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Re: This is the reasons why cessation of feeling and perception is temporary nibbana with residue

Post by Ratnakar »

Pondera wrote: Sun Mar 07, 2021 5:20 am “Neutral feeling” is “adukkhaasukkha” not “uppekha”.

“Adukkhaasukkha” is felt in the fourth jhana. The one thing we know about jhana is that it gets more and more refined as you go up.

The “pleasure” of the fourth jhana cannot be defined in ordinary terms. Similarly to “neither perception nor non perception” - the term “adukkhaasukkha” describes a transcendental state of pleasure that evades description.

Similarly - Sariputta declared Nirodha Samapatti as “pleasurable because nothing is felt”. And the Buddha backed him up by saying that he defines pleasure where ever it is found.

So - similar to the “pleasure” of the fourth jhana, the “pleasure” of Nirodha Samapatti evades description.

This practice in Buddhism of saying “neither nor” is wrong and “both here and there” is wrong is simply a way of expressing something that cannot be described in regular terms (like the Buddha’s location after pari Nibbana).

In other words “adukkhaasukkha” does NOT mean “neutral”.
No, neutral feeling can be mapped to equanimity feeling
Sn48.38
In this context, the faculties of pleasure and happiness should be seen as pleasant feeling. The faculties of pain and sadness should be seen as painful feeling. The faculty of equanimity should be seen as neutral feeling.

That’s how these five faculties, depending on how they’re explained, having been five become three, and having been three become five.”
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Re: This is the reasons why cessation of feeling and perception is temporary nibbana with residue

Post by form »

After one read page 1-3, can one put it into practice? If one wants to meditate and after reading page 1-3, can he still meditate successfully? :mrgreen:
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Re: This is the reasons why cessation of feeling and perception is temporary nibbana with residue

Post by Pondera »

Ratnakar wrote: Fri Jul 23, 2021 12:31 pm
Pondera wrote: Sun Mar 07, 2021 5:20 am “Neutral feeling” is “adukkhaasukkha” not “uppekha”.

“Adukkhaasukkha” is felt in the fourth jhana. The one thing we know about jhana is that it gets more and more refined as you go up.

The “pleasure” of the fourth jhana cannot be defined in ordinary terms. Similarly to “neither perception nor non perception” - the term “adukkhaasukkha” describes a transcendental state of pleasure that evades description.

Similarly - Sariputta declared Nirodha Samapatti as “pleasurable because nothing is felt”. And the Buddha backed him up by saying that he defines pleasure where ever it is found.

So - similar to the “pleasure” of the fourth jhana, the “pleasure” of Nirodha Samapatti evades description.

This practice in Buddhism of saying “neither nor” is wrong and “both here and there” is wrong is simply a way of expressing something that cannot be described in regular terms (like the Buddha’s location after pari Nibbana).

In other words “adukkhaasukkha” does NOT mean “neutral”.
No, neutral feeling can be mapped to equanimity feeling
Sn48.38
In this context, the faculties of pleasure and happiness should be seen as pleasant feeling. The faculties of pain and sadness should be seen as painful feeling. The faculty of equanimity should be seen as neutral feeling.

That’s how these five faculties, depending on how they’re explained, having been five become three, and having been three become five.”
Sure. “Equanimity” is a “neutral” feeling.

“Adukkhaasukkha” is not.

“Adukkhaasukkha” is the primary attainment of the fourth jhana. I doubt (on a conceptual level) that the primary attainment of the fourth jhana is an unremarkable “neutral” feeling. As I’ve said, it goes beyond pain and pleasure.

It is similar to Nirodha Samapatti where Sariputta says the attainment is pleasurable “precisely because nothing is felt”.

I doubt “adukkhaasukkha” is “ neutral” just as I doubt “neither perception nor non perception” is something rather bland and unremarkable.

You need to interpret the use of “neither-nor” in its proper usage.

If the Buddha meant “neutral” then he’d use the Pali word for “neutral”.
Like the three marks of conditioned existence, this world in itself is filthy, hostile, and crowded
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